Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
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Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
EP.104 Abi Mustapha and YFAM's Move For Change Event: Arts & Social Justice
About
Abi Mustapha and Thomas Sage Pedersen discuss the relationship between Social Justice and The Arts. This was a partnership between Yoga For All Movements Move For Change Event and Speak For Change Podcast.
Contact
Abi Mustapha
https://www.instagram.com/abimustapha/
https://linktr.ee/abimustapha
Thomas Sage Pedersen
https://linktr.ee/Speakforchangepodcast
https://www.instagram.com/speakforchangepodcast/
https://www.instagram.com/thomassagepedersen/
Yoga For All Movement
https://www.instagram.com/yogaforallmovement/
https://linktr.ee/yogaforallmovement
This episode is brought to you by everyone's music school. The E the mission is to create positive and lasting change in people's lives. With music education, they do online, and in person lessons, they have two locations, one at the tannery arts center in Santa Cruz, California, and another in the L Rancho shopping center in pleasure point, California, for full transparency. I am the founder of everyone's music school. Um, to sign up, you can go to everyone's music, school.com/contact in the signup form. If you say, speak for change family, you'll get our family discounted rate. You know, everyone's music. School is such a special place, and it's just growing. And we really do care about our students. As you know, from listening to this podcast, you know, we, we take all the stuff we've learned here and from our guests, and really try to incorporate all that into our school and into our teaching. Um, they are not really as separate as they may seem. Um, I'm very much involved and the day to day. So if you reach out, you'll be getting music education, but you'll get, be getting so much more than that. All right. Well, hope you enjoy the show Broadcasting from everyone's music school at the Tanner art center in Santa Cruz is California. This is speak for change podcast. I'm your host Thomas Sage Petterson. Our mission is to inspire positive and lasting change in our local and global community. All right, folks, today is a special episode, uh, at a panel discussion with my sister and co-host Abby Mo if, uh, this was a partnership between speak for change, podcasts and yoga for all movements, move for change event. So me and Abby have the deepest conversations.<laugh> all right. So what you're about to hear is a normal conversation that we have together with the focus around the arts and it's connection with social justice. So, for those who don't know who Abby MoFA is, she's a past guest and an amazing artist. She also is a local leader amongst social justice issues within our community. You know, you all really need to check her out, um, check out her Instagram, check out her art. Uh, it will be in the description of this episode. Her art is remarkable. So yeah, you're gonna have to just check that out. And I wanna say thank you to Shawn and Julia and the rest of the yoga for all movement crew for having me on this event and allowing Abby and I to explore this topic and kind of have just a candid conversation and about how the arts and social justice, um, flow together and all the connections between those things. So this episode is really fun. It's really engaging, um, there's feedback from an audience. So, uh, we'll, we'll be sharing video clips too throughout the week. Um, but yeah, you just want to check out this episode, so thank you all for listening. All right, here we go. Thank you, Shawn. You're amazing. Um, yeah, Thomas stage Patterson with, uh, speak for change podcasts, uh, and this is Abby MRA. Yep. And, uh, yeah. So what what's, so the topic today is social justice and how it relates to the arts, arts
Speaker 2:And media
Speaker 1:And yeah. And media. Thank you, Abby.<laugh>. So I kind of wanna ask you to start off this conversation, um, how social justice has inspired your art or how it relates to your art in any way?
Speaker 2:I think, well, I don't, I don't think that my specific art, my personal art isn't, I don't look at it necessarily. Don't usually do pieces that are politically motivated or motivated by like social justice, I think, right. The act of making art and allowing it to be seen is a radical act in itself. And I think just allowing yourself to be seen creates change in a lot of ways. So in that way, I think, I think it plays into social justice. I think the art that we did for the mural right. Is more of a direct link to social justice.
Speaker 1:So the, the black lives matter mural. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. So that, that's a little bit different because that had a very specific purpose and impact in a social justice realm.
Speaker 1:Right.<laugh> no, I, I hear that. And I think, I don't know, I, I guess historically art has been, I guess, highlighted primarily by white folks. Right. You know, like an equity issue. Right. And so I think recently it seems like there's been more of a highlight of, you know, by pop. Uh,
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think, well, I think right now it's, it's shifting, there's definitely, um, it's a trend.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right now to, to try to highlight voices who haven't really been highlighted right. In the same way as before. So even that too, just like seeing what people who have a different story, you know, life story and, uh, experiences are creating that, that changes everybody. Right. You know, you have, you have more to like look at more, to expand on and more to see that you just didn't see before. So just again, allowing yourself to be seen in that way or people making space for everyone to be seen. Right. Like that is the activism in a lot of the art that's happening right now in Santa Cruz specifically, but in, in a lot of places. So I, that, that in itself is activism. I think the other, the other thing for me in learning to make my art mm-hmm<affirmative>, and I think a lot of artists go through this and singers and songwriters and podcasters and, you know yeah. Is when you find something that's an authentic core piece of yourself. Right. You know, initiating that journey. Yeah. To get to that authentic core is an, a radical act<laugh> in itself, it is that's activism because everything else is telling you who you should be. So when you have that little inclination to initiate something that isn't what everyone else is telling you to do that, then things go left real quick. Like you just, all of a sudden, other people are seeing you do that. And then that initiates, it's like a wildfire, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, that can do it. I can do it. Yeah. That expansion that happens when people take that leap and they're just themselves. And so I think that, I think that's a type of art that everybody does not just like visual artists or, you know, dancers or people that we specifically look at and call them artists. Yeah. I think that in itself, is art creating anything new is art.
Speaker 1:Mm. Yeah. I mean, I hear<laugh>. I feel like I, I hear that on like a personal level. Right. Cause when I started the podcast, it was do, I mean, to be honest, it was primarily like personal development stuff. Mm-hmm<affirmative>, you know what I mean? It was like I wanted, I was just talking growth and change and like being like off authentic and being who you are in the world. Right. And like standing up. But then I feel, I feel after George Floyd and Amma ARB brewery, when those things happen to hit me hard. Cause I was like running every single day during that time. So I was like, you know, running in like app tos neighborhoods and, and I, and I don't dress nice when I run, you know what I mean? I got, I got sweats with holes in them and I don't care, you know, just
Speaker 2:A black guy running. I'm
Speaker 1:Just a black guy.<laugh> just a black guy running, you know? And so I'm like a little extra cautious about, um, how I look when I'm walking. Like when I'm like, Ugh, like I'm exhausted. I'm just like walking. I'm like, oh man, I got like headphones on. I'm like got a kind of a hoodie on. I'm just kind of like, you know, wandering these streets. And so that story of a Mo Arbery, you know, getting like sh murdered, you know, and the street really hit me. And I was, I was like, I need to make this podcast into more of a social justice angle, you know, just because I need to explore that. And quickly I started to realize the con connection between personal development and social justice. Right. Like, you know, I don't know when I'm talking to PE like, okay, this I'm gonna event that happened this morning. Right. Like I was wearing a, uh, end white supremacy shirt on<laugh> and I was getting water and pleasure point like, uh, for a, like the water gallon here. And the lady was this old white lady. And I could like automatically, she would just start treating me like really like dismissively. And she looked at my shirt and she kept looking down and like away. And, you know, I can see like the behaviors of like, and I didn't want to address it. I just felt kind of uncomfortable, you know? And I'm sure she felt uncomfortable as well. And<laugh>, but see, like that's the point, right. We feel uncomfortable. And I think arts and the media and all this stuff off allows us to explore that vulnerable space, which allows us to grow as a society. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well it, I think it, it instigates yeah. Things. So even if it's just a feeling, you know, there's been times where I've seen art that I didn't think was what I would call beautiful, but it elicited this feeling from me. And sometimes art is just meant to do that. And so I think when you talk about art and activism, any kind of feeling that it elicits from you that you haven't explored. Yeah. That, that in itself too, is like, that's part of what art does. Yeah. So when you, when you pair it or talk about it in the realm of activism, it's creating something that, that you possibly take action on. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:And like your shirt, the art of, well, the shirt you're wearing this morning, you know, that, that too, it's like that created
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 2:That creative feeling, you
Speaker 1:Know, it could have potentially created a really interesting conversation too, you
Speaker 2:Know, but now, but now that person might be thinking about something they weren't thinking about when they woke. Exactly. You know, and I think that's also, you know, a byproduct of art<laugh> yeah. You know, I think activism is kind of that you, it goes both ways because you can make art specifically to, for activism. Right. You know, we use it in, like everyone uses it in propaganda, you to create movements, you use it to like to get the word out about certain things. And then the act of making art can initiate that on its own. Not on purpose,
Speaker 1:You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, just by somebody like taking something and running with it. Yeah. And a lot of times that's how it happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah. No, I, I, I completely hear that. And on, you know, on, on top of that, you know, uh, I was talking to my friend Tyre, Tyre Richie, I'm still shout out Tyre. Right. Um, but hi, Tyre<laugh> um, I was asking him like, what is social justice to him? Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. And he was just like, it's when he, he talked about it as being, when community like looking at the problems of a community and like fixing those mistakes, like seeing what needs to be worked on in community in regards to equity. And maybe I'm, I'm kind of going over what he was explaining, but, um, and like justice and all these different angles of like, what are these voices not being, are these voices being heard, like looking at community. Right. And I think what you're saying with art and like, what was it illicit? I don't, I don't know that word, like, um, bringing up emotions, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It elicits it elicits emotion. Eliss some sort of, um, reaction. Yeah. Right. You know, even if it's not the one you hoped for, when you made it, it's doing something it's and that's action in its internal action.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that is cuz once it does that, then only the community of people, right. Start to, you know, they have a choice. They can, they can go forward with that action. Right. Or are like, they can go forward with that feeling and do something with that, which is like kind of social justice right. In one's community. Or they could just kind of suppress<laugh>, you know, just suppress it a bunch. Um, but it's harder and harder when it's like, you know, in your face. Right. And I, you know, I even think the act of doing the art, you know, I can just say in one year doing a podcast I've significantly changed, you know, just by being okay with expressing myself and trying to discover my authentic self. Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and so like through that, you know, that changed. I don't, I don't know. It, it really does. It changed me a as a person. Right. And I feel like if more people allow themselves to express themselves and like really discover parts of themselves that maybe they, they did not see before.
Speaker 2:Well, I think sometimes art gives people that thing that they can't express themselves. Yeah. You know, there's like a lot of times like,
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, like That's an inside
Speaker 2:Joke, everybody, you, a lot of times our people don't necessarily always get art because it's beautiful. Or because of, you know, this, a lot of times they're getting it, cuz they're getting a piece of a piece of the emotion that went into it or a piece of the artist or a piece of the, the time period that it was created. Right. So a lot of times they're, it's not something they could have created on their own. And when they see it, they're like that I, that gets me here. Right. Like I feel that I resonate with that. I, I want that in my life. Yeah. And so that's the other piece to that. It's like, yeah. People, I think everybody should be creating art<laugh> all the time. Exactly. But also some people it's not that, that isn't their art, the creation of what we would call art, isn't their art, but supporting artists. Yeah. And, and doing what they do in the world and creating any kind of creation is what I would call art. Yeah. You know? So then just the act of participating in buying art or seeing something they resonate with and feeling that even if they don't purchase anything, just the idea of like seeing it, feeling it is participating in the art right. In that way as well, you know, that's art, art for social change and social justice, like look at any, any movement that's ever happened. Yeah. Throughout the history of like time all, all the time, you know? Yeah. There's art is in everything. Yeah. Art is on it's on our money. Yep. You know, look at the money, look at what that means that that in itself is a statement. Right. Right there. Like even changing the$20 bill, that's a huge statement. Right. You know, that, that is, that is saying something that's activism. And when you look at movements throughout history and the different, the way art played a role, you know like, like everyone knows the poster uncle Sam wants you. Yeah. Like we weren't there for that.<laugh> but we know about it. Yeah, exactly. You know, we know the poster make love or was it make love, not war.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Simple. Yeah. The peace symbol, the like the, all of the, the graphic. Yeah. Art and graphic design that happens. That those, those are markers in time as well. And a lot of times those are that's what, what created whatever change was happening at the time, it's, you know, it's used in propaganda, it's used in like alternative propaganda. Yeah. It can be used in so many ways, but without the art behind it. Yeah. Like there's, there's no movement. Yeah. Cause you, otherwise, you're just like screaming into a megaphone if there's no, like if there's no art that people have this visual of what they're doing. Right. You know, every book that you get has art on it. Like every, yeah. Anything that we do always like people use logos. Yeah. You know, it's a psychological thing too. Yeah. It's psychological more than it's even. I, I mean, psychological, spiritual, emotional, all the things, all the things<laugh>, you know, and I think that, that is like, it's, it can be hijacked.
Speaker 1:I mean it's yes. And you know, if we broaden, what is art, right. Like dance, right. Or any kind of other like music expresses, like these things have been correlated with movements throughout history. Right. And you know, now what's really interesting to me is the use of art, um, intentionally with like social movements and social change as like a, a, a way of non V island resistance. Right. And so like, I, uh, there's this, uh, where what's happening right now? Where, where, where am I thinking? I can't think of the exact country right now, but there was a protest and these, these dancers just started dancing around these like really like buffed out police. Right. They like got the, they look like something like star or some sci-fi film, you know, they, they look scary, you know, they got gear everywhere. It looks, you know, and they're just doing this like really elaborate dancing around them. And it, what it does is it highlights like how, like kind of ridiculous the whole situation is that the extreme use of force. Right? Yeah. Cause the problem was that the government was using extreme force on the people. Right. They were killing people in the streets, you know, and these people chose to dance, you know, how much bravery and how much courage it takes to dance while people are being killed around you, you know, that's like, that's a whole nother level. You know? I can't, I can't imagine. Cause I think the immediate response is like, we need to fight back. Right. And imagine like going out and being like, no, we need to dance around these people who are killing people. Yeah. You know, like that. I mean, speaking of social, well,
Speaker 2:That's what exactly, well, that's art and that's like, look what it elicited in. You like, look at the, like the response. Yeah. And then the response that, that gets versus just firing back, just
Speaker 1:Violence people.
Speaker 2:Exactly. So it's a whole other way of communicating. Right. It's a different way of communicating and it, and the thing with art is
Speaker 1:That's, that's what it is
Speaker 2:With communication through art. There's like a myriad of interpretations. Yeah. So
Speaker 1:I mean a different way of communicating. I mean, that sounds beautiful. Right. That's true. Like I I'm, I feel like I'm like having a moment, you know, I'm like, I'm like, cuz it truly is. Yeah. Yeah. Coming down from the heavens. Um, because if you really think about it, it is a different way of communicating. It's like you were communicating with emotion, we're communicating with, I mean, like when I have to figure out my own emotions when I'm like going through stuff, I end up writing poetry. Right. I just end up writing poetry because ration, no writing, like trying to journal it out. It doesn't work for me. But if I somehow just abstract it, you know, in a way that just doesn't make complete sense at first like logical sense mm-hmm<affirmative> it suddenly starts to make sense. Right. And well,
Speaker 2:It's like, it there's, it almost creates spaciousness around it. Right. Or your mind to take it in, like you, you don't even know how much your mind is exploring all the spaciousness around it. I think that's like all the parables in tons of religious texts, not just the Bible, but like every type of religious text has some sort of parables in that that you have to kind of decipher. Yeah. You're not just straightforward. Right. A lot of times. And there's spaciousness around that. It's like way of communicating is poetically. Yeah. Or parables speaking in rap rhymes, you know, like all these things that, that leave space for multiple types of interpretation.
Speaker 1:No. And yeah, exactly. And I think the, I think to really understand the impact the arts have on social justice movements and all these movements, you have to realize the impact of, and it sounds like it's fundamental, but human emotion, you know, I think we, as a society, as a mainstream society, don't give enough credit to human emotion, you know, like, and it's impacts on,
Speaker 2:I think that's on purpose though, you know? Yeah. The idea of like boys don't cry. Yeah. And girls are very emotional, right. Things like that. Like when people don't pay attention to their emotions and they have to bury it, they're much easier to control. Yeah. And if art lets out your emotion, it's like, no, shut down the artist.<laugh> can't like, we can't deal with that right now.
Speaker 1:Well, can you imagine, I mean,
Speaker 2:It's, it's not productive to have emotional people
Speaker 1:That's so that's so interest. It's like, you know, I've been having this conversation with people about like education, our education system. Right. And how a lot of times our education system are teaching us how to be like good workers, right. Not really good leaders of our own lives. They're not teaching us financial literacy. They're not teaching us emotional intelligence. You know, they're not teaching us all these things to be a functional human they're teaching us how to like obey authority, you know? Sure. They're learning, we're learning math and stuff. But the format of it is,
Speaker 2:Well, I mean that was the purpose of public education right. In the industrial revolution was to create a obedient working class
Speaker 1:Ex. Exactly. Right. And so, you know, can you imagine if people just radically started doing self-expressive things with the pure intent of just self-expression I mean, that would be crazy
Speaker 2:Burning man. Yeah.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Not this again.
Speaker 3:No, no. Um, but yeah,
Speaker 1:I just burning man. Oh man. Yeah. But it's true though. Right. You know, this idea of like, it's, it's just so radical because I think when you see a good piece of art that really resonates with you personally, you start to listen. I had, so I have a student or not, uh, uh, an employee, right. He's a teacher at my school and he, I interviewed him about music. Right. Just, it was like a music podcast. I was interviewing him. He said the most profound thing to me, he was, cause he listens to a lot of weird classical music. He like weird like, um, avanguard music and I, and I dig it, but I was like, you know, so why do you listen to these things? He's like, well, I like to listen to music that challenges me. Cause sometimes I feel like I'll listen to this type of music and it'll make me feel an emotion. But then this kind of Avan Gar music has the ability to make me feel two different emotions at the same time. And so was, this is this like training and emotional intelligence, you know, being able to feel like dissonance and you know, abstraction at the same time where it made him feel uncomfortable, but made him feel like a new emotion. He was like, it's almost like seeing a new color. Yeah. That's what I was just gonna
Speaker 2:Say like yeah. When you see a new color, you're like,
Speaker 3:<laugh> do I just see that
Speaker 1:It is that you know exactly. Well, we should, uh, see if there's any questions. Is there, uh, Julia or Shawn? Is there any questions out there?
Speaker 4:We don't have any questions in the chat yet. Okay. But, um, I have, I mean I have<laugh> everyone here, everyone here. I put a little thing in here. You can leave your, um, your questions in the chat if you want. And um, oh, someone said audio is really bad. That's weird. It's fine for me. So, um,<affirmative> I wonder if someone else wants to put in the chat camera, I can hear the audio. Great. So
Speaker 1:Is it really bad?
Speaker 4:It's perfect for me. So, and I think Shawn said it was good for her too.
Speaker 2:So Andrew button is good for
Speaker 4:You too. Yeah. Sorry,
Speaker 1:Button calling out people.
Speaker 3:<laugh>
Speaker 4:Like, whatever. Well just sure that you're turning up the volume on your device and that might also be helpful that person logged out and probably gonna log back in. Um, totally. Okay. I would love to hear about, I don't know, I have a couple questions and one is more specifically about your experience, Abby. Um, I don't know if you wanna see my, can you I'll see my, see my face, um, creating the, the, creating the black lives matter mural and just like your, the process of kind of awakening to your desire to do that. And then, you know, without, without getting back into the, the frustration of it for you, like how was it to work? Have you heard
Speaker 5:About the, of it
Speaker 4:Just talking about like, um, you know, as an artist you're like, okay, I wanna make this really this big public statement, but it's also my art, my passion, it has to do with my identity and, and all these beliefs. And just, how was that ugly, that personal desire to create this and then that like more collective the need to act on that collective level and sometimes the bureaucratic level and, and just, yeah, I don't know your experience around the mural and, um, and creating public art, I think in general, but that's, you know, that was such a public one. You can see it from a plane. So, um, and obviously a whole team and created it. But as a, I think question is like mural. It's two part question, your experience creating mural. And then also, um, as an artist, how do you kind of balance that like creating public art for the collective, with the collective, but also really being like, well, I do art, as you said for me to discover myself, to get in touch with my emotions and, and what's that like as a, as a person and as a collective?
Speaker 2:Well<laugh>, I think that was a lot. That was a lot, but the, the BLM mural was inspired. Obviously there were other murals happening. And at the time, you know, I had a friend in Oakland initiate their BLM mural there. And I was between here in Oakland and I couldn't participate in that one. And I, you know, I've spent more time in Santa Cruz and there was a part of me. I was down here while that was happening and I was like, I, that needs to happen here and more. So what would happen if we did that? Here was the question. And that's, you know, I think that's often where art starts is with question. And so the question was, what, what would happen if we did that here? How would people show up? Would they not show up? And initially I, I wanted it to, I wanted to just do it kind of rogue. Like I thought we could just go out and paint the street. I remember that. And, and it would've been more of like a, a statement, you know, a protest statement to just do it. And initially I, you know, I'm friends, I was friends with Justin Cummings at the time and I text him was like, I have this idea I'm gonna just, and he, he was like, I think that's a great idea. He's like, get a permit. And I was like, no,
Speaker 3:<laugh>,
Speaker 2:You know, I thought he could just say, yeah, go do it. And the other part of that, once he said that I hit up Tay and I was like, TA I have this idea. I wanna do it. And he was like, I'm down. And I was like, but Justin wants us to get a permit. He's like, well, I'm down either way. Let me know how that goes.<laugh> you know, and I was like, oh,<laugh>. And so then I was like, should we just do it? Should we not? But then we, at, at some point we talked to too many people to just go do it. And Tay was like, at this point, like, they're gonna know I did it.<laugh> yeah. He's like, I can't, I can't I'll do it if you really want to, but like, I'm not really trying to get in trouble right now. Let's just try to get the permits. So that was kind of, you know, the initial like, well, why are we doing it? You know? So initially to make a statement, to see how people would react was my first idea behind it. And then as it developed, it was like, wow, you know, if we get permits, we can do other things along with it. So then it, it becomes a community involved, um, activity and event that now we have something behind it. So now, because we got permits, now we have, we have, for 10 years, we can hold this event that will have things with it. Like this year, we're having different group dialogues and discussions on racial equity and people can participate and learn. And we're also looking at what's and done in our community, which is pretty cool. And, and so without that aspect of it, getting the permits, going that route, um, we, we wouldn't have been able to have all, all the actual change that comes with it. Yeah. Not that I don't think. I think that public art, just for the purpose of creating a statement is also really powerful. So I think it can be powerful in, in both is, but because we, we did it this way. Now we have the option of adding to it every year and adding what yeah. What kind of change it can create. So that was the first part. It, it was frustrating. And<laugh>, I, I mean, anybody who's, you know, done anything with permits and bureaucracy knows that it was at some point, TA was like, this is the fastest per we've ever gotten. This is great. And I was like, this is horrible. This, this is like that, all of those things make me never wanna do this again.<laugh> like, this is I'm, I'm like, this is why I make my own art in my studio by myself.<laugh> I don't have to deal with those kind of stuff. And then, um, but it was a really good experience actually, and a whole team behind. It was incredible, you know, Sean and Sean and Tay, and like everyone who was involved was really involved. There wasn't anybody who was just kind of like sitting back and not doing anything. And then all the people who came out and painted it like that. Wasn't I, I barely painted that mural.<laugh> I, maybe I, and I just like rolled a little bit of paint on one of the edges. Like at the end, I was like, like touching it up, but really, you know, the community did all of the painting. So everybody gets to say that they participated in that. Like I made that, like, I didn't make that most of Santa Cruz made that, or right. A lot of Santa Cruz made that<laugh>, you know, and then that initiates a conversation. So that's still on the road for people to see and people to continue to react to. So there's that my own personal art, uh, is very different from that. I make art that to me, it's just beautiful. Yeah. And I think I try to, you know, it's rare that I do, you know, politically motivated pieces. I do have, I have, like, I have one Gandhi piece that has a lot of mixed media in it. And that one was really motivated by like nonviolence when I was making it and what was going on in my life. But a lot of times I make art because it, I, I want it to just be beautiful. Yeah. And the act of doing that, I have found, um, especially allowing it to be seen in different places, allows people to see the people that I put in my art in ways that they didn't see those people before. Right. You know, I was doing a lot of, of drawings and portraits of different photos from all over Africa. And so that, that alone, like for people to see a certain type of person that they've never encountered or would never encounter on the street, you know, and to get to look at that, like the act of making it for me is really profound because I get to see all the different lines and wrinkles and the stories that are created in people's. I make up stories. I get to like, feel, you know, what could have been. And that to me is, is like, wow, it's kind of mind blowing, but I, I would hope that when people see that, that just seeing something that's not familiar to them is, is a little bit challenging. Yeah. You know? And so for me, that that's where my art becomes activism is to, to challenge what people are normally seeing in art, you know? And, um, I think there's, there's a lot of ways that that can go, I do a lot of like goddessy flower hair, you know, women. And a lot of times that realm is inhibited by a certain type of looking woman. So for me, it's really fun to, to like make, I, I, I, I create a lot of biracial people in my art and that's, that's something that I didn't grow up seeing. Yeah. And so it's really fun to start seeing myself in these ways that I didn't see myself in when I was visiting art shows or, you know, places growing up. It's like, I'm not there now. I am you, you know, so it's really fun. It's kind of fun for me that way, but, but just the, the diverse range of photos and people that I use in my art for me is, is my way of, of kind of rebelling against the status quo of what I see in that realm of art all the time. And, um, I think that that's my initiation into my core authenticity. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and that's me being rebellious by being like, oh, I'm just gonna make this<laugh>, I'm gonna make this and somebody's gonna pay me for it. Yeah.<laugh> and that, and that's what I want, you know, in, instead of the, like, no, you gotta do this, you gotta do that. You know, if there was a point there was a time, there was a point in time where parents, you know, I thought I was gonna go to law school. Yeah. I was like, I was, I have a degree in political science and I, the whole time, while I was pursuing that, it was because of this belief that I had, that I, I didn't believe I could make it as an artist or do these things. So at some point I was like, Nope, I like, I wanna make my art. Right. And, um, at some point, all the people who didn't believe in you when they start seeing you doing it, then they're like, yeah, you can do it. You can, you know, the other day, my dad's like, you're gonna be famous someday for your art. And I was like, funny you say that now. Yeah. You know? And so that, that too, like me finding my authentic voice through my own art, now there's little kids like me looking at me. Yeah. Saying, well, if she can do it, I can do it. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. So just the act of being an expander, the same thing with you, mm-hmm<affirmative> with, with anybody, what Sean does with yoga for all movement. Like that is an art, the art of, of authenticating. Yeah. You know, and then you're an expander for somebody else. They can see what you're doing and say, oh, that's possible. Right. You know, or that wasn't possible before. Now that it is, I wonder what else isn't that I think isn't or think is impossible is there's a potential for it to be, so that's long story long.
Speaker 3:<laugh>
Speaker 1:Beautiful
Speaker 4:Story. Beautiful. Love that. Yeah. There's some just comments in the chat about how powerful that was. Hearts. Some hearts, some scars, some hearts
Speaker 1:Got the chills over here. Oh, good. Yeah. Um, did that answer the question? Did it,
Speaker 2:What was the question?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, it was just to hear, I just wanna hear you talk about art. You know, that's all
Speaker 2:About art, Thomas. I talk about art a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah.<laugh> I love the idea of having that interracial aspect to it. Right. Cause we're both mixed race and, um, yeah, I didn't have anyone. Cause I thought thinking about that, I didn't have anyone who I looked up to. Right. You know, who looked like me and it was hard to see that and like, like art shows and media and TV and,
Speaker 2:And also like, that's the thing, it depends on where you are in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. You know, but like not where I was not where, where
Speaker 2:I was.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not where I was. I, you know, I had the experience when I was, I did a study abroad in Costa Rica and when I went to Panama yeah. I was in Panama city and I was like, oh my God, everybody looks like me.<laugh> you know, or just, I, I blended in. Yeah. You know, I had never been to a place in the world, old where I blended in, even when I go to Sierra Leone, I stick out. Yeah. So there's still that like, well, like here, I'm black there I'm white. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:And so I'm, I've always just been that, that outlier. Yeah. The other, I think I actually just filled out a form recently where I was other again. And I was like,
Speaker 1:It's what
Speaker 2:Just happened? It's 20, 21. How am I still of, yeah. You know, but um, yeah. Back to art and media, I just, that the biracial
Speaker 1:Thing, I mean, that, that relates, you know, because I think, you know, the media<laugh>, you know, that has to, you know, that's, that's representation, you know what I mean? And like, but what's kind of cool about it. Like you're saying, like, we both were kind of like outliers, we both were kind of that, you know, other box category. I, it kind of allowed us to like see, to be in between two worlds a little bit. I don't know, to see that kind of our own way. Mm-hmm<affirmative><affirmative> and I think it's cool that we gravitated toward the arts, you know, because,
Speaker 2:Well, and that's, I feel like, you know, the other thing about that, and this is a broad statement, don't judge me, but<laugh> art is where the weirdos are.<laugh> Yeah, it is so amen. Art, art supports all kinds of, so even if it, even if there are these kind of like hierarchical structures controlling who gets me for art. Right. Just being an artist. Yeah. That I feel like that always exploded into like, like the weird kids. Yeah. You know? Yeah. The weird the outliers, the others. Yeah.
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 2:You know, the others and somehow it, it shifted and at different times in history, the trend was to like, oh, artists are cool. Yeah. You know, at times they're cool. And at times they're nuisance. Yeah. So, but it was a lot of times the artists who, or people who looked at as artists, right. That they were like, oh, the artists that's now they're the change makers. It's like, well, change expressers. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like
Speaker 2:Expressing what's already happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And like in community, you know, you know, just hearing your story about, you know, the black lives matter mural and kind of knowing what's involved in that, I'm like, wow. Like the community aspect to that is amazing. And it's all for art really. You know, it's like an artistic thing, you know? And so it's like, but you it's, it's, it's really interesting to, you do have those two worlds where you're like the artist. Right. But you're also like doing all this crazy community organizing work through to make this mural happen. And, you know,
Speaker 2:I, I more stressed enough that I did, I did not do well.
Speaker 1:You're, you're part of,
Speaker 2:I feel like I initiated it. And then the team of people who wanted to do it as well. Yeah. You know, and then everybody got involved. So really I was just, I was the, like, I'm the artist.<laugh>, I'm the artist I'm here doing my thing. Sean is the wizard. He's doing his thing. Shawn is like the activism, wizard wizard was a dress<laugh> yeah.
Speaker 6:Like,
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I love it.
Speaker 2:So every, everybody had their thing. TA is like the, the art person that can get everybody to rally to do things. Everybody loves TA you know, that's that should go on a shirt. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Everybody loves TA sounds like a good show.
Speaker 3:<laugh>
Speaker 1:Yeah. If TA's listening, you should have that show. That should be your podcast.
Speaker 2:We'll send it to him.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Everybody loves TA that's TA<laugh>. All right. Does anybody have any, uh, other questions?
Speaker 4:No questions here. More appreciation, but you're getting a lot of appreciation. Everybody's just appreciating this con a lot.
Speaker 7:Oh man.
Speaker 4:We just like listening to you.
Speaker 3:That's
Speaker 2:Great.
Speaker 8:Yeah. Yeah. This is Shawn. Um, I feel like I have a question and I'm just wanna acknowledge too. I'm really enjoying this, uh, round table conversation and, um, it's you? Yes. And I agree. Everybody loves TA I never, never, before if I seen someone roll in with such a deeply invested crew, like not just like a crew, like a deeply invested crew of like they're solid. Yes. The answer is just, yes, we will do whatever you want us to do. Um, yeah.
Speaker 9:Just be nervous sometimes.
Speaker 8:Sometimes. I mean, yeah. I mean, well, and I think that's, that's like right. No, in a good way. Yeah. But it's interesting. Right. We see that in teachers and you know, this kind of like GU cultural too, where sometimes that can be dangerous, so fair enough. You know, and so they're all pretty rebellious Too.
Speaker 9:They're
Speaker 8:Yeah. And I think that's like actually really sweet segue to what I was gonna ask, which is, I think there's, there's potential here to utilize influence and leadership and privilege for the greater good. And I just have a question really, to both of you, of whether it's in the art world or, um, expressive arts and, and create creative world or other is, you know, what could, what could be done differently.
Speaker 2:That is a loaded question.
Speaker 1:So what, what do you mean what can be done differently in, in leadership or, sorry,
Speaker 8:In leadership, anybody who's in a, in a place of power. Oh, got it. You know, to be able to U utilize that influence for the greater good and that power can look different. It could be somebody who has an money. Yeah. Um, power could be somebody who's influence and maybe that influences like just thousands of Instagram followers, or maybe that influences like really the power to speak a message to thousands of people. Mm-hmm<affirmative> maybe that power is leadership, like, you know, political leadership, I feel like. So, yeah, it's a, it is, it's a broad question and it is low to, um, wouldn't ask it if I didn't think we all have great ideas.<laugh>
Speaker 1:You wanna, do you wanna answer that first? Uh, Abby, I, I could go if you don't want
Speaker 2:To. Well, I think there's a lot of things that could be done differently. I think all of us acknowledging where we're at with privilege, like we both have white privilege mm-hmm<affirmative>, we're biracial. Yep. You know, the experience of being discriminated against and being, um, in a privileged position is It's a, it's a whole thing. Yeah. But, but we do have white privilege. Yeah. You know, in a, in a way that like many people in the world don't so acknowledging where we're at on all of that. I think that that's one thing in leadership that like just the acknowledgement mm-hmm<affirmative> of things, a lot of times shifts the narrative around the next thing that, that we're, we're going into. Yeah. So in leader, anywhere in leadership, acknowledging where, where you're at with that. And, um, we're seeing that more and more, which is really, really good. I think, I think if you have a platform that you created with some of your privilege, the change that I would wanna see is, is like sharing that privilege, you know? And that's, I, I think that's the only way to really highlight people because it wasn't, it's not necessarily that, that it's, it's hard to explain, I think, privilege in itself. Yeah. Isn't, isn't the, like taking more of the pie, if that makes sense. It's, you're actually keeping people from accessing that's right. The pie high. So it's not, it's not necessarily just that like, oh, I created this cuz I have all this privilege. It's like, yeah. But it, the thing that created you and created this system, isn't that the, the act it's the, this is really hard to explain.
Speaker 1:I understand. Yeah. I mean, it's like a resource thing, right? Like, you know, the fear of
Speaker 2:Resources. Yeah. Like just releasing, releasing the whole old on it. Yeah. So if you have a platform like sharing your space, sharing the, the access. Right. You know, and that's, that's one thing that obviously like Shawn does that really well<laugh>, you know, and, and that's shifting and I'm, we're all seeing that shifting, but realizing like people there, people just don't even have access. Yeah. You know, so opening up that story or that, that whole Pandora's box of like looking at ourselves mm-hmm<affirmative>, you know, and we've, we've had these conversations where we have to look at ourselves and be like,
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2:Yes. But you know, like, would I have been able to do that mural if I were a black resident, it of Santa Cruz that didn't have a ton of really well connected white friends. Yeah. Not likely, you know, am I sometimes more palatable to people because I'm biracial. Yes. Likely that's all of that is white privilege. Right. And that's hard to look at mm-hmm<affirmative>, you know, especially like still being like, well, I'm black, it's like, yes. And I have white privilege. Yeah. And so have having to acknowledge that in, in all the things that we do and looking at where we do that and then where we can try to share the power more or even just like give it to somebody else. Exactly. To be like, you know what, this is yours here, you know that, so, and those are, those are very, um, sensitive. I beyond sensitive, it's like, it's, it's a it's shadow work. Yeah. You know, that we all have to do. And even for me to acknowledge that at one point it was like, yeah. Oh my God. You know, like that's and that's everybody has to do their own work in that way. Um, and it's very vulnerable.
Speaker 1:You. Yeah. I mean, I, I relate to, yeah, obviously, right. I relate to that and you know, personal development work is, I mean, that's what it is. Right. It's like understand. It's like you have to have the will to be even so it's, it's a hard question for me to answer personally, because for what it takes to do that, you know, to acknowledge your privilege, to acknowledge a system that's not your personal life. Cause one of the biggest things I talk to like white people who, and people with white privilege is that maybe they were raised in like a similar circumstance, as you know, in poverty, they've had to work their way up the ladder. You know, they've worked hard to get to where they're at and they equate that with white privilege when it has nothing to do with that. Right. It's not about the personal story or narrative it's about the system that we live in, you know? And the, even the, the idea of cur I think we just need more curiosity. So if I<laugh>, if I was talking to, I mean, I got kind of angry to be honest with like, during like the black lives matter thing. Um, and I know it's like a little bit petty, so it's a little bit vulnerable to talk about, but I got a little bit angry because of, uh, you know, I'd see like businesses who have like thousands of followers and influencers and all these people and that they would just like on, I think it was Jan, actually it was a January 6th thing. It was when the interaction happened at the capital, they just didn't wanna share it. They didn't wanna share anything about it. They kind of just put a picture of like art on their profile or something. They put some kind of like something to, without acknowledging anything that was going on in the real world. And their idea was like, well, I wanna share something beautiful right now, instead of talking about this thing. And I mean, they didn't say that in the post either. It's just like people telling, asking them, like, why aren't they saying anything about it? Right. And I don't know, I got kind of angry cuz I was like, man, like what, where what you need to stand for something, you know? And if you don't know where you stand, that's okay. You know, you, you need to think about that and then like maybe express that. But I think more bravery, well honest,
Speaker 2:But that's, that's the difference is that like in action because of the system that we live in yeah. In action is it's racism. Yeah. Right. So the, to be to change it, you, it takes an action. You have to, because the system is built on white supremacy in, in our system. Right. Because that's how it's built. Yes. To be not racist is it's an action. It's a verb. Like you, you have to actually be anti-racist and that, that actually takes action. So if you are just living the status quo, right. Unfortunately, and this is gonna be a loaded
Speaker 1:Statement. Yeah. I
Speaker 2:Feel you. But the status quo is racist. Yeah. We, and we all experience it. We all perpetuate it. So to, if you don't wanna be racist assist, you actually have to take action. And that's something that it's really vulnerable to say that and to do that and to be like, I have to, like now I have to take action right. In, I can't just have these thoughts where I'm like, no, I love everybody. Yeah. It's like, well, yes. But the system that is designed even mentally, physically, emotionally, like we've been taught and raised in this system that we, we don't even realize how much our implicit bias is affecting all of our decisions. So to undo that it's actually an action for, so you're not taking any action. Yeah. You're complicit yeah. In a racist system. And that, that is the same thing as participating, being racist. And so there
Speaker 1:We go.<laugh> here we go.
Speaker 10:<laugh>
Speaker 2:Well, and so well, and she's asking what we can do. Yeah. It's like, don't do nothing. Is that, can I say
Speaker 1:That? Yeah, don't do. I mean,
Speaker 2:Don't, don't just do something, anything. Yeah. Just
Speaker 1:Anything. And I think a lot of fear is like the fear of, Ooh, I did the wrong thing. Right. You know, I have that, that question lot. Like what's the right thing. And I'm like, when you do something that's against the status quo, it's always gonna, there's always gonna people who are gonna like criticize you and all this stuff, but it's the act of trying, you know, I had somebody who was from a different country. I'm not gonna name or anybody, but they posted something on their Facebook. And they had like, you know, the beginning of the post was, were great. It was like anti-racist books. Like, you know this and talking about hair, they were talking, it was a white lady just talking about hair about, you know, how it's like a shame, how there are people getting fired for, you know, wearing natural hair in the African American community, in the black community. And so she posted a picture of herself with like an Afro wig. Right. And that's like problematic, you know, cuz she's like, I want to normalize like wearing a like Afro hair. Right. So that like maybe like her idea was that like maybe if like we all can see it<laugh>, you know, it can make change. Um,
Speaker 2:Yeah. Intentions aren't always
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right. Comes. Right. And so like she did something and yeah, there was a wrong thing. And, but when I called are out, see, this is the thing is like, I, I reached, I called her, I talked to her and she didn't even listen too much. She's like, no, that's not my intention. So I'm not gonna take it down.
Speaker 2:Oh. And, and she thought she had to go through her journey with that.
Speaker 1:I'm sure. Yeah. And that's well, that's the thing like, um, I was super respectful, super kind. And eventually she did because another more and more people started to talk to her privately and that's, it was beautiful. No one like called her out on the internet right away. But you know, so she eventually took it down. But I, I, you know, I was pretty impre. I was, I admired that she did something and then she was willing to change it. Even though she didn't listen to me right away. But you know, I don't know. What do you think of that story? Like
Speaker 2:I
Speaker 10:<laugh>,
Speaker 1:But I guess my point was like, you know, she did something, she did action.
Speaker 2:Well, and I'm sure that that action, even if it was the wrong one, it inspired conversation. Well,
Speaker 1:And that's that's
Speaker 2:And it taught her something new that now she can teach somebody else. Exactly. Like next she will be the person explaining that to another person who makes that same mistake, maybe doing something similar. Right. So
Speaker 1:I think we have an aversion for like struggle, you know, like, you know, like conflict, you know? And so we kind of try to avoid those things, but these situations we're going through are extremely conflicting. You know, it's gonna bring up struggle. It's gonna bring up things. I had a conversation with family in my white side of the family, you know, and if you follow my podcast, you know, I'm pretty vocal about certain issues, you know? And um, and I think, you know, I, I wanna use this weird metaphor that maybe I will be the only one to, but I was like painting these walls. Right. And I was, I had paper down, I didn't have plastic down. I had paper down, I spilled paint on the paper and I was like, Ugh. I was like, I'll clean it up later. And it dried and dried and dried. And so finally when I was taking everything down, I started cleaning up this paint, like with the paper stuck to the, the wood floor mm-hmm<affirmative>. And at first it was like super easy. You know, I got the chunks off was super, super easy, but the part that's been drying there, the longest it was, it was, I don't know if I can cuss, but you, you know, it was bad. Right. I was like, I was like having spray chemicals. I like try to scrape it. I was like, man, it just won't come out. It took so much work. It like sweat. It was just like so hard to get out. Cause it was so ingrain. And so like to get back to the question, right. Leadership, like what would I tell leadership? I would say like open your mind, do like, look at the situation and like do something, you know, like say speak up, cuz like, you know, it takes a lot of bravery and vulnerability to, to vulnerability. It takes vulnerability. Right? What is vulnerability is being willing to put yourself in, in harm's way mm-hmm<affirmative>, you know, open yourself up to harm.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think that that too is like, um, that's one of the social justice issues that I think has to be acknowledged and overcome. Yeah. Is this like our, like that, that it's all these things together, but our lack of vulnerability with ourselves and with other people keeps us from making a lot of changes, you know, like living in this whole fear paradigm of just like, no, like going into the unknown is scary. What if we were taught as kids being curious and going into the unknown is good. It's good. It's Great's always, it's it's really good.
Speaker 1:You know? Or it's yeah. Or it's
Speaker 2:Like you get supported no matter what exactly Like that, that isn't what we're taught because you can't control people who are curious, you know? So you take it to all these different levels. It all comes down to like fear and control. Yeah. You know, even in places where their societies, aren't struggling with the exact same things as us here, right. In the us, like the bottom line for all of it is, is any version of supremacy. This idea that we, something is better than something else, instead of something is different than something else.
Speaker 1:That's that's that's, that's funny because like, the question was like about leadership and about like the people who have like power, right. And it's almost like learn to transfer that power, you know, learn to like go to the people, go to the community and like be part of the community. Instead of like being over here, maybe ask a question, maybe like do something that, you know, share some art that will in like inspire some kind of conversation. Maybe like, you know, do something, but like do something that helps the community come into the conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, I think the that's the other thing about leadership is like a lot of times, um, there's a lot of really good leadership. Yeah. But sometimes there's leadership that's so high above that they don't even know the people at the bottom exist. Yeah. You know, I've seen different things happen throughout the pandemic. Like we were just talking about this actually mm-hmm<affirmative> so Uber and Lyft are giving free rides. Oh. To get, to get for people to get vaccinated. Yeah. What's the problem with that.<laugh> right. Like on the surface you're like, oh, that's what a great idea of free rides. The people who have access to Uber and Lyft likely don't need rides. Yeah. You know, somebody who has a credit card and can sign up for Lyft on their phone, Uber likely. And, and there's, I'm sure there's a percentage of people who don't have the money to go get to, to the, the ride. Yeah. But likely people who have access to those apps are not the people who desperately need the ride yeah. To go get vaccinated, you know, or to go to the doctor, go to wherever. Yeah. So how, that, that is such a site. Yeah. By the people at the top, making that decision. And that's a leadership thing where they're so high up or, or, or maybe it was literally just, um,
Speaker 1:Performative, performative.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, it's like, well, is it actually, does that do anything? Yeah. You know, is, and maybe it will for a, a percentage of people I would venture to say not, yeah. You know, that's the whole point of that too. Or the idea that like, if you want to help people experiencing homelessness, mm-hmm<affirmative> you have to go and ask them what they need. Yeah. That's, that's, what's really, that's frustrating too, when you we're watching everybody who isn't experiencing it, try to decide how to, to like deal with, or handle these people who are seeing it, like go and ask them, go and talk to them, go figure out what they need. And I think that that's, that's one thing that, like, we see it a lot in leadership where people think that they're making good decisions for other people. Right. But it's based on their own perspective. Right. And their own experience. They're not basting it off of the experience of what that person is actually has gone through. So, so making decisions for other are people, and those are the people in leadership are often making decisions for other people. They are the ones who, who make most of the decisions for other people. So if you're not actually in contact with those people yeah. Then you're doing a disservice to, to those people. Most of
Speaker 1:The time, I mean, you're in contact with the people maybe that you have community with, you know what I mean? Or you have, well, it's
Speaker 2:Supposed to trickle down, you know, like, okay, I'm, I'm going delegate to this person. Who's gonna go talk to that person, to that person. And then they're gonna create the model for this. And it's like, well, what would it look like if some of the people that you were trying to help or given the power that you had? Yeah. You know, not just their voice and their voices start with a voice. Yeah. But not just their voice saying, this is what I need, but like, like bringing those people into actually like
Speaker 1:Leadership
Speaker 2:Roles, leadership roles and that that's, and that again, and that, that goes back to the idea of supremacy, the like, well, I'm educated. I have all the, these other things that I know how to do here. It's like, well, what if leadership actually looked different? Yeah. You know what, if we did it differently and it wasn't, it wasn't this idea of like small groups of leaders. What if it rotated? What if it shifted? What if, you know, people play different parts all the time. You know, one thing I was super impressed with that. Sean said that one of our, um, se equity collab meetings was, he was the like, I don't want, I don't think that we, I don't wanna be in a position of power where I'm in this founding group long enough that I feel like I have to hold onto anything. Right. He's like, that's not what, that's not where I wanna be. He's like, that's, that is part. And that's part of what I think is good leadership. Yeah. Is being like, I don't, I don't want to be the per person in charge of this power long enough that it corrupts me.
Speaker 1:I feel like true leadership is, is almost like a, just a role that you temporarily go in. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a rotating.
Speaker 1:You're never supposed to be there forever. And I think that is UN almost unnatural feeling, you know, if there's like, and I think that's why, well, cuz
Speaker 2:That's, cuz if you're there forever, nothing's changed.
Speaker 1:And I mean, that's what, and that's what we're having problems with our current, I mean, not our presidents. Right. But our legislators who are, you know, career politicians who are in the office that, you know, for, you know, 20, 30 years or something like our current president. Right. He he's been
Speaker 2:Well. And that's the, that's the thing, a career in any type of position of power. It's like you, why would you wanna, now, now your family depends on that. Your, it depends on, on you maintaining this position right. Where it's like, well, what if we create? And that's the whole point of reimagining new systems, right? So it's not, it's you, can't this idea of like, and we're going down a rabbit hole right here. Shawn, stop me if this is not okay. But for real, this idea of reforming the police. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 1:No, for real, you're going, but I'm just saying
Speaker 2:You can't re like, that's, let's like somebody saying let's reform the KKK<laugh> would you, would anybody try to do that? And that's an extreme version of that, but would anybody try to do that? No, because the premise of their group is that they do this certain thing. Yeah. You know? So the premise of the police it's like reform, this is the reformed version.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Like that's what it looks like.
Speaker 1:This is the reformed version. That
Speaker 2:Is the reformed version. So,
Speaker 1:And you have to know the history of the police understand that. Right.
Speaker 2:Exactly. So look up the history of the police,
Speaker 1:Google, Google's your friend, Google, Google, Google
Speaker 2:<laugh>. But if you look at the history of the police, you're like, this is the reformed version of that. So reimagining something else is, is in my opinion, for many of these issues that we have, it's, re-imagining something new. So not anything that we've ever had. Yeah. And that, I think that for people they're like, ah, but this is how it's always been. It's like, and it's not working.
Speaker 1:And I think, I think what to get back to the, the answer, the question, right? Tony, are we, but, um, it's, it's allowing these leaders to, I think leaders need to be more vulnerable. Right? They need to understand their privilege. They need to understand that this way is not working for people. How, how they understand that. I mean, that takes their will, you know, you can't force anyone to change and that's the point of art, right? Art, community, grassroots and movements right on the outside, forcing in. Right. Is that it inspires,<laugh> inspires, inspires those to make those reforms and change because they see the people are unhappy. You know, it forces them to see the people, you know? And I think that is, well,
Speaker 2:There's empathy in that too. Yeah. Like forcing yourself to look at somebody as yourself. Right. All of a sudden you're like, oh, well that's that changes everything. Exactly. You know? So it, when, when you have something that inspires somebody to make change, a lot of times the empathy involved with that yeah. Is that's really the, it's the empathy part, you know, of like, I can relate to you. I see you as a human. I see you as myself.
Speaker 1:And I think that is the key, cuz you know, when I, cause I was talking to someone about, um, incarcerated folks, right. People who are locked up and when I was working at like the mental health, um, hospital, right. Um, or it was like a home, I was like a, a mental health counselor, her and I remember the biggest shock. I remember going, getting the job and seeing some, you know, Schizoaffective disorder person who had like no teeth, her hair was tracking. I was like, Ugh. I felt like, like my in my initial was Ugh. When I started working there, that that lady became like really, I became really close with that lady and it wasn because like, I, I wasn't forcing it. I just, I, I, I heard her story, you know, and her story was that she used to be a bartender. She used to like have a life. She used to have her kid and all this stuff. And she had one mental breakdown. And since she didn't have like a privileged position, like she didn't have family to support her. Like she got kind of lost in the system and trusted like different things. And she kind of just wound up and it just kind of seemed spiral for her. And I'm like, man, I don't think people know how RA or thin the connections between being houseless or being vulnerable are between people
Speaker 2:Shows that, do you know how many movies like in the last five or 10 years? At least there's several that I've seen. Yeah. Where I was like, yeah, whoa, that's how this per, that, that just whether they were true stories or not. Yeah. Someone made a movie that I just watched bliss. Have you seen that?
Speaker 1:No, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. Or blue Magnolia, these are both stories of, of like how people got to where they are. And you're like, that could have been me. You see? And that's, and that's what art can do and can initiate that, like that empathy or that, that feeling of, oh my gosh. Cause those
Speaker 1:Movies and, and realize when you're talking about art, we're talking about movies, we're talking about film, we're talking about, you know, media, all
Speaker 2:That kind of creating something that wasn't there. Yeah. So<laugh>, we<laugh>, are there
Speaker 1:Any, is that a, yeah, we,
Speaker 2:We got off track, but we're back on art and
Speaker 4:This is it's all. Life is art. Um, we have a couple questions, but wow. Thank you Shawn. This is Julia. Honestly, Shawn and I texting Shawn and I are texting each other right now. We're just like, wow. Wow. We're just like said, we're like, oh wow. That's so fo yeah, we're super stoked. Um, there are a couple awesome questions in here. I'm gonna do them chronologically. Um, since we're running a little short on time. Um, but that's okay. I mean, we just wanna, our next question starts, our session starts at four 30, so we have right up until like, you know, 4 27. Um, so Susan asks, this is awesome. Um, I'm gonna ask a couple of these questions and maybe you can choose, um, there's a few in here and you can choose which you wanna answer in the next, you know, 10, 15 minutes where you can, um, ask me to repeat them all. Um, so if Susan asks, how does making art together collaborative, collaboratively, excuse me, help amplify collective unity for action. So it's a really too. And Abby, you were talking about this a little before about like how art inspires people to, to act, but specifically, how does art making art collectively help amplify, um, unity for action and then button. This is really awesome asking about, um, a story, that story Thomas, that you told about privately speaking with someone about their actions and how they're, you know, harmful or their intention isn't, isn't coming out in the world as they had hoped. And, and this person asked in, in this case, it seems like that was effective to speak with that person privately, but in general, do you think this method is more effectively than publicly calling people out?<laugh> um, and when is it appropriate to publicly copy? I wanna answer that one, a question about art, art, and collective action and publicly calling out. So which everyone you wanna go
Speaker 2:I'll answer the collective action. Okay, go ahead. I think, I think collaborating. So in, in the act of collaborating, you are releasing control. And so I think that's a powerful action in itself that when all of a sudden, when you're collaborating with somebody, if you go into a collaboration with your idea of how it's going to turn out in the end, that's not a collaboration, right? If you enter into collaboration with the idea of like, there will be something at the end. Yeah. And I don't know what it is because I don't know what you're gonna add and then what I'm gonna, you know, follow with. Right. So doing something collaboratively in the community allows everybody the option of number one participating. But now everybody also owns a piece of that. Everyone has a piece in, everyone has skin in the game. Yeah. Essentially. And, and then they feel empowered. Like they just created something together. Right. So that I think collaboration is really, really important. And for that, and sometimes it's harder to collaborate than others when you have a certain goal in mind. So I think collaborating with like a very loose goal is really good for the community. And it builds community because everybody has a piece of it. Everybody has a stake in it and, and like, you create something new together.<laugh>, you know, it, it's very vulnerable to create something with somebody else and to let go of your, that, that is a whole other self actualizing process of being like, right. I release control of what this will become, you know, and, and releasing it into the ether. And then this thing happens and you're like, oh, look what we just made, you know? And then you're, you're in it together. And it's a, it's like a, a cool thing together. So that's how I would answer that question about
Speaker 4:Reflecting. That's so relevant, Abby. It just makes me think. And, and now I'm part of this conversation too. Hello. Um, it makes me think a lot about how, um, that applies to everything art, any project relationship. I mean, any, you know, from building a garden exactly. Like building a building, right. Like so beautiful. That non attachment
Speaker 2:Having to go into the void of like,
Speaker 11:I know, here
Speaker 1:We go, here we
Speaker 2:Go.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And this, I think, and Shawn talks about this a lot. How like, and activists talk about this a lot. How like reimagining a new society is fricking scary. Right. Cause we don't know what's gonna happen. Number one, but also we have to trust each other. We have to trust each other and it's really, really scary. Um, and actually this is a great segue into, into this other question about calling people out. Cause that's about trust is right. Like<laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I, I wasn't thinking about, I was like, just like trying to listen to what you were saying and um, so yeah. Let's calling people out. Yeah. So it's a tough question. Cause I, I think that, I think, okay, so here here's how I would, I would go about that at the, I would have the calling people out publicly in my back pocket till the end. I like to think creatively about these situations because I see meaningful change happening, not by embarrassing or humiliating somebody, um, which is what calling out publicly does, um, changes them into trying to change. And I don't think that change is what we want. Um, I think the change we want is something that's sustainable. You know, something that, cuz you can't force someone to change. I mean, I can't, I can't argue that enough. You know, when you meet somebody and they you off, you know, you can't be like, mm I, I I'm so used to cussing. So I don't know if I can CU am I allowed to cuss on here? Am I not allowed? Am I allowed? Um, no. Okay. I Don
Speaker 8:Authentic.
Speaker 12:So I don't know
Speaker 4:All adults here. I had to think about if there were gonna be any kids watching this and I, yeah,
Speaker 1:Not likely. Yeah. I could, I could believe them out too and post, but you know, like people like racists, people me off. Right. You know, and I, and I want to change them. You know what I mean? I want to, I wanna change them. You know what I mean? But I know I can't do it by just sh like sharing something publicly and being like, you know, these guys, look what they're doing. Like, don't go to their business, all this stuff, you know, because I've seen that and I've seen the results, but I've actually had the experience of seeing the people behind that. And they're not changed. Oh, they're doubling down now, you know, now they're at war. Their defenses are up. There's no way that person's gonna change now. Now they're just going to voices that talk to them. Nice. All that stuff. The changes I've seen is with conversations is when, yeah, let's say a business is being racist instead of like calling'em out, you call them. And you're like, Hey, I heard this happened. Is this true? What are your thoughts about this? And you continually do that. You have to think creatively about it. Right. You know, you gotta call them over and over again and be like, Hey, like, can we talk about this? Can we discuss this? And then see what their point of view is? And you know, and if all that they're just doubling down and all that, you know, you can't change people then yeah. Call it out, you know, but call it out in a way like, Hey, this business supports this. I theology. I am not gonna shop here. You know? And I, and I invite you not to as well. You know what I mean? But not, I just think the more energy you're just giving them more power. You're just giving the people like rush Limbaugh and all those cats more power, because that's where they go. I mean, he's dead. He's good. But like, you know, like those, those kind of people like to Steve Bannons of the world, you know, like people are speaking racist rhetoric, um, pretty regularly. Um, so I think thinking creatively about it, having conversations, but guess what? It's easier to call out somebody than it is to like have a conversation. I think of the civil, right. It's I think of like the sit-ins right. That wasn't a call out, right? They weren't calling out this business saying they're not accepting black people, like white people don't go there, all this stuff, you know? Well, they that's part of it, but they like, they, they, they went in there anyway and they sat there and they, they trained to do that. Right. They trained months ahead of time. And how they trained was their peers would pour coffee on them. They would put gum in their hair. They would yell at them. And their job was not to be emotional in response it's to just sit and take it well.
Speaker 2:And just to add to that, mm-hmm<affirmative>, I think that part of call out culture is emoting. So I don't think that it always has anything to do with really wanting to make a change. Well, see that's I think, I think that's when you get into this gray area of like, is this, is it, are you doing what works or are you doing what, what? Cause something's always being achieved. Right? So times what's actually being achieved is the emoting of your pains.
Speaker 1:It just feels like you you're just picking a fight for no parent reason. You, you know,
Speaker 2:But that's what I'm saying. The reason is to the emotional release, right. calling somebody out and being, you know, like that's what it's about. It's not always about the change and that there's value in, in all of that. I don't know if I would say it works to the same result that people are are, are hoping they're getting, let call out culture or that some people are looking at and saying, but if your goal is this, that's not working. Yeah. Like we see that all the time. But, but realizing like, mm, that, that might, they might not have even realized that their goal actually was because they needed to emote. Right. Maybe
Speaker 1:That's. Yeah, no, I, I, I agree. You know, and I think that's where strategic act action is important. Yes. Definitely using social media. Like, I mean, I, I shared a post on my Instagram of a homeless black lady getting arrested or, you know, detained, detain, detained, legally detained. And you know, I got some pushback from local representatives and, you know, but you know, I was like, this needs to be highlighted. You know, it's not that I'm like calling out all these like policies, but I'm also saying like, look, this is the result of this policy. Right. You know, it's a strategic action. So I'm saying, if you're gonna call out somebody, like what Abby's saying, look at your intention, you know?
Speaker 2:And that's, and that, again, that's like personal development person to
Speaker 1:Be able
Speaker 2:To like, stop and be like, oh, am I trying to emote right now? Or am I trying to make a change? Like, what is this gonna like that?
Speaker 1:Cause it's gonna make a change. It's is not gonna be the change
Speaker 2:You want. That's like, that's, that's personal development, which is like the most radical form of activism that we can have right now. Right. Is people working on themselves? Exactly. And, and becoming more
Speaker 1:Reading anti-racist books and well conscious
Speaker 2:Of just like raising their conscious awareness to anything. And that takes personal work. So anyways<laugh> or question. Yeah.
Speaker 1:<laugh> I dunno if that answers the question
Speaker 4:Accurate. Yeah. That's I mean, leave it to you to, to turn like, you know, a question into something super deep about development and shadow work and that, and says, thank you. Um, I mean, Ugh, so beautiful. And it's so much about what we talk about here at YFA too, which is like, yeah, why am I doing this? Right. Like, like, you know, as a white woman, as a white CIS woman, like I'm, nobody's savior, I'm not here to, to impose anything on anyone. I'm not here to tell anyone how to live. I'm not gonna save anyone's life. Right. But I ha I am, I have privilege I'm closer to the locus of power. And like you said, Abby, like, so how can I bring some, some people who aren't as close to the locus of power up here and then, and then step down, you know, it's not about like staying up here. Um, and it's not about like throwing candy from, from privilege, you know, standing on the pedestal of privilege and like throwing candy down to the parade. It's like, that's not action. That's not social justice.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think we forget too, that sometimes when, when people who are in who, who are given leadership positions, who aren't normally in leadership positions, they might change the way that organization looks. Exactly. And that's something that also people have trouble with a lot of times this idea that like, oh no, no, but now that organizations operating differently and it, it, people do. It's like, well, this is what, this is another version of that. It doesn't, you know, we have this kind of status quo of what certain things are supposed to look like. Yeah. And when you give different people a chance to do it, they're gonna do it differently and it's gonna look differently. And you that's. The other part of a good leader passing on the torch is, is allowing people to create the next thing. I think.
Speaker 1:I mean that, and that reminds me of, uh, I mean, you mentioned this before, like when we've talked before, but you know, when, when artists are exposed to different artists, their art changes. Right. You know, like, or they have the potential to change. Right. You know, and so having a leader who's maybe a different leader than you're used to, that's gonna, is the organization just like art will change how people perceive or how the public perceives art will change. If you bring in more diverse artists.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Everything informs everything else. Right. Mm-hmm<affirmative> so this idea that if, if you're working to getting toward getting better, I gave you the example of, I had a friend who makes this really beautiful type of art mm-hmm<affirmative>. And I asked her how she did it at one point. And she was like, I, you know, I really don't like to tell anybody, because I don't want someone to steal the way I do this. And my thought on that was like, I've done that before. I've felt that before of like, not wanting to change, but, but when you do the potential for somebody to run with that and create something new, and then you can go to them and be like, whoa, how did you do that? Yeah. And now, instead of having a step stool where you're like reaching your goals on this step, still, you have a ladder and everybody can go, like, you go a lot higher on a ladder when everybody is adding a wrong. Yep. And so I think that's, that's the other part that like, life is a collaboration, right? Yeah.
Speaker 1:What's that African proverb
Speaker 2:Proverb. Oh. It's like, if you wanna go fast, go alone. If you wanna go far go together. Yeah. That's right. That's and that's, so the idea that, um, you know, to seek the truth, mm-hmm<affirmative>, if anyone wants to hear this, like you have to be willing to open to the idea that everything you believe could be wrong and that if you're open to the idea that everything you believe could be wrong, that's, that's a huge vulnerable piece of, of existence. Right. But, but then only through going through that, can you actually get to truth or to like authentic core of anything? Yeah. You know, and I forgot what we were talking about.
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 4:I am just listening to, to word magic happens.
Speaker 8:So
Speaker 4:I'm sad to say we're bumping up against our time period, but, um, amazing. You two are just so incredible. It's really such an honor to not only just listen to you speak, but be able to interject our, my, like Sean and I clearly designed this event. So we would just get to make your brains, but it's really such an honor, um, to be like involved in the conversation too, and kind of co-create um,
Speaker 8:This has been so cool. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4:This is where I exist. Life
Speaker 2:MYFA podcast.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not against it. Um, yeah.
Speaker 8:Already exists and it out speak for change.
Speaker 2:There's always room for more. Yeah.
Speaker 8:<laugh> we just collaborate. We'll come talk to you anytime.<laugh>
Speaker 4:You just wanna say thank you. And, um, and yeah, we are so here for this and more conversations like this every day. Love it.
Speaker 2:Thank for having us.
Speaker 1:Yes. Seriously. Thanks for having us. This
Speaker 2:Is what we do like late night. Yeah.
Speaker 9:<laugh>
Speaker 8:Somehow I knew that I was like, I just really want your conversations to be. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Um, and thank you for sharing
Speaker 8:Anything with us about speak for change just before we leave. I'd love to, uh, just have, have a little shout out for people to be able to know where else they could hear, hear you. And
Speaker 1:Oh, oh yeah. I mean, so I run, uh, podcast speak for change podcasts. Um, you can literal, you can go on apple, any, any place where you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, all that. And, um, yeah. And if you just Google speak you for change, I'm like really heavy on Instagram. So if you wanna like, actually follow me, just follow the speak for change podcast, Instagram, we actually started a new project, uh, that was launched today. Um, changed the cost, which is, uh, collaboration with my buddy Nati, who runs his podcast, paid the cost. And so, I mean, if you want to hear about all these fun little series, we do go to speak for change podcast.
Speaker 8:Thank you.
Speaker 4:Put that in the, um, in the chat there too, for everyone clicks it and you can look on in, um, yoga for all movement. Um, we have all of our awesome. We do lots of reposting of your
Speaker 1:Stuff. Abby actually has the episode on there too. So
Speaker 8:<laugh>, I agree. Amazing to be able to keep listening, keep diving mute.<laugh> you Abby, where can we buy your art
Speaker 2:<laugh> um, studio 1 21 24
Speaker 9:<laugh> studio
Speaker 2:Studio, 1 24 at the Tanner. Um, yeah. Or hit me up on Instagram. That's the easiest. I have a website. Um, I don't have any art for sale on my website, but you can contact me there if you see something you like on Instagram. Yeah. Most of it's for sale. Um,
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's Abby MoFA right?
Speaker 2:Yes. A, B I M U S T a B H a.com. Yeah.
Speaker 4:<laugh> and we can also go on the yoga for all movement website yoga for all movement.org, where we talk about, um, the black lives ladder mural we've been chatting about and obvious website, as well as Taylor TA's website. We're talking about is linked on there. So you can explore all these artists that we were mentioning.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I'm a pro podcaster.
Speaker 1:That's all took track, kept track of all the artists we were talking about.
Speaker 4:<laugh> no, you can, you can rely on an event coordinator. We're here for
Speaker 1:You. Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 4:Nice. Uh, thank you so much, Shawn, do you have any other news? Our next class starts soon. So if you're here for move for change and just go back onto that website and pop into the next zoom link and then, uh, and then we start again tomorrow at am. So yeah, it's all happening.
Speaker 8:Thank you both so much. Can't wait to be able to share this. We had, you know, definitely well over 40 people purchase tickets that will be getting access to this, uh, to this interview and this podcast, so awesome. Um, more, more of your sharing. We'll be out there in the world. And so just thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This was life giving for me. Thank you so much. Thank you. This was
Speaker 4:Great. This was fun. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna end the meeting. Um, and it's gonna end it for everyone since I'm the host. So I don't wanna suddenly cut you all off, but, um, thanks for being here, everybody. And, um, obviously you two stay and hang out there. You're there together. And I, A controlling event coordinator,
Speaker 13:Just shout the cloud.
Speaker 4:I'm like, you can do this. You can do this. You stay in this room all good. Right? Y'all talk.
Speaker 1:You
Speaker 4:So much. Bye.