Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
Welcome to Speak for Change with Thomas Sage Pedersen! Our mission is to inspire and promote positive and lasting change in our local & global communities.
Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
Ep.150: Andy Hudson's Inspiring Voyage Through Music
https://www.theandyhudson.com/
Ever wondered how a simple mix-up could change the course of a musician's life? Join us on Speak for Change as Andy Hudson, a talented clarinetist and educator, recounts the amusing story of how he ended up with a clarinet instead of the saxophone he originally desired.
Through a blend of humor and passion, Andy shares his remarkable evolution from reluctantly playing the clarinet to discovering his profound love for the bass clarinet, an instrument he now champions for its marimba-like range and versatility in the orchestra.
Experience the captivating world of contemporary and experimental music as Andy takes us through a memorable performance of an Alvin Lucier piece in a Chinese restaurant. Discover the power of music in unconventional venues and the importance of connecting with young audiences through new stories and compositions.
Through collaborations with composers like Yvonne Rodriguez, whose works explore themes of migration, Andy illustrates how contemporary music can foster empathy and enrich our understanding of classical repertoire, ultimately bridging cultural gaps and enhancing humanity.
Explore the significance of play, experimentation, and community engagement in shaping the future of orchestral music. Andy highlights the challenges and triumphs of integrating new voices into traditional orchestra settings, celebrating the Cabrillo Festival's role in promoting innovation.
From the transformative power of bringing orchestral music to local communities to the dedication of musicians interpreting contemporary works, this episode emphasizes the importance of inclusivity, accessibility, and the joy of continuous artistic exploration. Tune in for an inspirational journey that underscores how music can drive personal and collective transformation.
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Hi, I'm your host, thomas Sage Pedersen, and welcome to Speak for Change podcast, where we explore positive and lasting change in all areas of life. Our next guest is a clarinet player, multi-instrumentalist, educator, just a great all-around guy, Andy Hudson. Andy, welcome to Speak for Change podcast. It's good to see you, man. It's an honor to have you on. Oh, thank you. By the way, you have like the best reputation in the orchestra. Oh, no, everyone loves you. I love them too. Yeah, in Stathric, you need to talk to Andy.
Speaker 1:Like you know you have such a good vibe and everything, so got that going.
Speaker 2:That means a lot. I love these people, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:So you're a clarinet player in the orchestra Right.
Speaker 2:You have published books on extended technique I have in fact written some books about extended techniques. No big deal, you know. Yeah, clarinet nerd stuff, yeah, clarinet nerds big time oh my gosh, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:So what? What got you into the clarinet? Like what when? What happened?
Speaker 2:yeah, when I, when I was young, I wanted to play the saxophone and I asked my parents to get me a saxophone from the music shop and they came home with a clarinet and I don't know if they didn't realize that it wasn't a saxophone, or if it was on sale or what it was, but I opened it and I said this this isn't, isn't a saxophone. And they said well, we have a two year contract on it, so this is what you're going to play and I'm. I'm glad it worked out that way.
Speaker 2:Actually funny story my brother, who's a trumpet player, wanted to play the trombone.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But he thought the trombone was called the trumpet, so he told him oh interesting, and they were like we're not going to mess this up again, and they roll up with a trumpet and he's so disappointed.
Speaker 1:And now he's a professional musician, this is amazing. Your family just, probably your mom's just like we just could never get this right. We tried the first time and then it's like you guys are like, eh, we got it, we owned it.
Speaker 1:You know, clarinet is one of those things where I'm like. So I used to work at a music shop. Okay, we used to sell horns and a bunch of sheet music. Obviously, it closed down because, you know, there's not like a big demand for sheet music, unfortunately. But they used to do repairs and all this stuff and I just was like the front guy and it was a pretty slow shop. So we just had end up having a bunch of awesome conversations and me just reading tons of music.
Speaker 1:Wow, just in the name of organizing, um. But I remember one day they had like a oh, please forgive me, uh, it's like a, not a bass clarinet, but it's I think it's a bit bigger a contra, contra clarinet, clarinet in like for sale. I regret to this day not buying it or not figuring out how to buy it, because the more and more I compose and listen listen to orchestration and orchestral music, the more and more I am just in love with like bass clarinet and clarinet in general. It's just such such a. I think it's like the unsung hero.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean I hope I don't get slack for saying this but like of the orchestra, I think it's like this instrument that adds actually so much Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, I mean I love I play third and bass clarinet here at Cabrillo and I love the bass clarinet and I sort of came to it later. I didn't play until college and even then didn't get really serious about it until graduate school and I I love the range. I mean it's functionally like a marimba, like.
Speaker 1:I almost have five octaves.
Speaker 2:It's just a huge range and a lot of composers who write music for me want to write for bass clarinet because it's so versatile Right. It's almost like a cello, I mean, it just has such a huge range of color and a really rich multifonic ecosystem. So there's all these crazy sounds in the instrument and it's fun in the orchestra because I sort of get to be a clarinet in one sense. Then some sense I'm another horn player and in another sense I'm with the cellos.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I'm a trombone and I feel like at Cabrillo. It's always an adventure, like I never really know what I'm going to be in each piece until I study the score and show up. So it's that kind of chameleon relationship is fun and once in a while I even get solos and exposed things and people can kind of hear that crazy sound so let's just backtrack a little bit, just so I can get your story of like how.
Speaker 1:so when you first got that clarinet and you realized it was a saxophone or wasn't a saxophone, what happened Like? Did you just say like, well, I guess I just have to do this, or?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just, I just rolled with it. I think I was looking for friends more than I was looking for a musical identity at that point.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful, yeah.
Speaker 2:I had already played the guitar, yeah. That was my first instrument. I still play guitar and sing, but I think I was just looking to be part of something, yeah, and I wasn't willing to jeopardize that. So I just played the clarinet, yeah, and I went to band every week, you know, to band class, yeah, met people and I was honestly a pretty bad clarinetist. I didn't practice, I didn't, I didn't have any sense of, I just wanted to.
Speaker 1:How old were you in this Fourth grade? So I mean, I was.
Speaker 2:I don't know eight seven.
Speaker 1:I don't even know how old people are. I just I'm just like fourth grade Got it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I I just wanted to be part of something and so that felt good, like being yeah. I was a year younger than all my classmates in elementary school and I I always felt like a little bit weird about that. Yeah, it's kind of an awkward kid in some ways, and I think music gave me a like, a place that was mine.
Speaker 1:Isn't that? Isn't that beautiful? That's that's so beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's, it's the reason I still do it is, you know, it's like the you make the place your own, but also the place makes you its own, and there's something really symbiotic about that for me that you're forming the thing, but the thing is also forming you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We all sort of end up different than we would have been if we hadn't been together. So I yeah, I think I found that and then I continued to play through middle school and also continued to not take it very seriously.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't until high school that I really started taking private lessons and I actually got a vision for oh, I could maybe do this you know, maybe play clarinet. I could maybe study music or continue to be part of a community like this long-term.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's taken a lot of crazy turns over the years, but um, but yeah it's. My favorite thing is that it just allows me to meet new people and hear new voices and tell new stories, and that's beautiful, yeah, so so what?
Speaker 1:what brings you to? You know kind of I'm, I'm, I'm jumping back and forth in time today? It's just what's happening. But contemporary music not every classically trained musician goes toward contemporary music. You know it's new, you don't really know what you're getting, you know, and there's a lot of risk involved, you know why. Can you kind of explain why you're drawn to contemporary music? If you are, if you're just doing this, like what is your motivation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a really important question, and I think I initially stumbled into contemporary music, I think because I wasn't afraid to say yes to composers.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like. I remember my first gig in Chicago when I moved. There was upstairs at this Chinese restaurant and I was playing a piece by Alvin Lucier and it was for droning clarinet with speaker and the speaker is moving this pitch from like subsonic to supersonic and they just needed someone to sit on stage and play long tones in circular breathe while this piece happened. I was like put me in, coach, sounds like fun. Sure, I'm in. And the reception was Girl Scout cookies and wine. It was great. I remember I got to the venue and I called the person who hired me and I said I I must be lost. They said no, what's the address? And I told them and they said no, that's the right address. I said I'm at this chinese restaurant, I just like no it's upstairs, it's cool, sounds good and I loved that show.
Speaker 2:And what I really loved about the show was not just the music, but I loved that people young people wanted to hear contemporary, experimental music and I think for me it's all about telling new stories, right? I mean, all music was once bleeding edge, and I play the clarinet. So Brahms was writing for Muehlfeld, for a clarinetist, and he wanted to tell his own stories and wanted to work through Muehlfeld as a vessel, and Mozart did it with Stadler, and Cabrillo does it with tons and tons of composers. But all music was once new and if we don't continue to create, then we end up with like a museum that it's really it's inaccessible. I mean, we've, we've.
Speaker 2:I love standard repertoire I played. I sort of thought my career was going to be that, but now I'm so grateful that a portion of what I do is work with composers to help them tell their stories and then I get to interpret those, sometimes as a soloist or as an ensemble player, like here, right, and I think there's something really important about telling stories from our generation. Yeah, and allowing a composer to tell a story from their generation or their experience, because the world is so siloed right, Like we're all, so just disconnected. But I think art can help us bridge those gaps.
Speaker 1:Oh man, I would love to hear more about how our art can bridge those gaps. Can you speak on that a little bit more?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you know, so like we're playing this piece this week by Yvonne Rodriguez, who I adore, who, yes, friend, a friend of the pod.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was on a couple three episodes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Ivan is just an incredible person. Yeah, so sweet, such a gifted musician and Ivan's. This piece we're premiering is about migration in some ways, and that's not an experience that I've had, right, you know I inherited a lot of privilege, right, you know I inherited a lot of privilege, right. And so I don't know what it's like to step out on this journey and in pursuit and to encounter those obstacles. But through music I can not fully understand, but I can glimpse, I can make an effort to engage, and then you have Ivan telling his own story, plus these other stories that he collected, and it ends up being this exchange of experience that allows someone like me who doesn't have that experience, to really get a powerful glimpse at it, and it helps me understand the humanity of someone different than me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think every composer at the festival is so different from one another and there are a million ways that we're all different from each other, but I think through music we can find ways to say okay, I haven't lived your life, I haven't walked in your shoes, but I could learn what it would be like to be with you in that, in a small way next to you, I can't be in it.
Speaker 2:I can't understand that fully.
Speaker 2:I can't understand that fully, I can't hold that. But I can get a sense of it and I can learn how to better support and love you as a person and how I can better enact change in my own life and community and take what I've learned from your experience back to my experience and I think it makes us more human long-term, and for me it's the gift of what we do now is that we, we get to tell these stories in a way that's authentic to us, so that our, our generation, in its, in its manifold beauties and its idiosyncrasies and its challenges, like that those stories are going to be passed down. I mean, you think about how music was initially transmitted as oral tradition Right, just sung and then sung and then sung, or played and then played and then played. And now you know, I hope that orchestra after orchestra will play Yvonne's piece yeah, for the next 500 years, and that it will capture timeless things, timely things and honestly, like the musicologists can decide which pieces they want to put, like fine, you know.
Speaker 2:I don't, I'm not worried about the evaluation. I think for us it's the creation that's so like sacred. Yeah, I feel really lucky to be at a place like Cabrillo that brings together I mean artists from across the world, just to do this thing and to give composers the respect they deserve and to honor their music and hold it like really tenderly Right. And to bring it to this community. I mean that that feels right.
Speaker 1:And then I think.
Speaker 2:I think then it affects the way we play Brahms, we play Copland and we played Mozart, like we approach those pieces too saying okay, yeah, it's a classical piece, there's a form, but like, what does it mean? Yeah and and what does it mean for me now and what did it mean for them then?
Speaker 1:and I think the best performances exist at the nexus of those things yeah, yeah, I think I love how you keep bringing this back to stories, right, because there's like there is a transformative power of stories, you know.
Speaker 1:I think, like when you are when you hear a story or when you're experiencing a story from someone else's point of view, through either music or the arts in general, and something hits you, if something passes by all your crazy defenses and your weird, you know, psychology, and it hits you in a spot that can change everything you know and just one person being shifted from that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I just I just listened to yvonne's piece at open rehearsal, I think last night, and talk about vulnerability, yeah, you know, and the fact that he I thought it was a pre when he was that he I thought it was a pre when he was talking about it. I thought it was a prerecorded track that was going to be saying all the things, like saying the stories from all these different people that he collected them from. But he is up there narrating it himself and there's something about that that was extremely vulnerable for me, like just as an observer, you know, seeing this man just talking about these stories firsthand, you know like he's talking to the audience, like it's his story and there was something transformative that happened to me in that moment where you know you really start to hit what is happening and then the music was just it's Yvonne.
Speaker 2:I think we were talking about this in the clarinet section. But Yvonne is this emerging voice in composition, in the spectrum, we would say, as a younger composer. But what's so striking? Striking, we played a piece by yvonne two years ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, metaphor for power, which that's when I a crazy, amazing piece and when I met yvonne, then I just became obsessed with this music and I'm still such a fan. Um, but we were early into the first reading of this piece and one of my colleagues said isn't it amazing that at such a young age when you hear that first chord you say that's a piece by Yvonne Rodriguez, Like that's something special?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's something really powerful that the voice is so authentic and focused. Yes, but then that he's using that to tell a range of kinds of stories yeah and I think that's where you you start to see, it's the height of this musical power, but then it's being used in service almost as a yeah, it's almost like um in in service to a larger narrative Right, and I think some, you know some musicians, artists of all fields with great skill it it can be a struggle to to know what to do with all that Right.
Speaker 1:So you know your experience from being in contemporary music and you know traditional music. How has that affected you on a personal development side? You know, has it affected you on a personal development side just being exposed to all this different types of music? I know you mentioned the stories and the things like that, but is there any other benefits or obstacles or whatever that come up in you when you're playing such new music?
Speaker 2:Yeah, One. One funny illustration is that when you're playing contemporary music, oftentimes you're playing such new music. Yeah, One. One funny illustration is that when you're playing contemporary music, oftentimes you're playing pitches that fall outside of, like the white keys and black keys on the piano quarter tones or glissando sliding pitches, and so sometimes I have the problem where, like, everything sounds right you know like you're sight reading a new piece, it's like oh, that sounds fine, I think you're a quarter tone.
Speaker 2:Oh, that sounds fine, I think you're a quarter tone. Oh, you're right, cause your, your ears get conditioned to to really try to listen to those those dense, harmonic and melodic moments. And so, yeah, sometimes there's like the running joke that like everything starts to sound right to contemporary musicians Like we don't, we don't know how to to not.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, so, so that that can be a fun challenge. I had that hold on. I had that situation where uh, this is a quick little story like I had a, I have a music school, right. So you know, I had this student when in the founding days of the school and he would just like hit the piano and, like I have a, I've been, I was studying contemporary composition at the time and all this stuff and I was just like, genuinely was great, sounds good man.
Speaker 1:I just had so many different sounds going on that I see it all as a textured landscape, and then I could end up playing Bach over the years. But I think it's because I just was like just genuinely accepted yeah, no, I.
Speaker 2:I think that's true and I actually think that that approach to music making where it should be play, it should be experimentation. We we sometimes beat that out of people in conservatory or music school and I did a project maybe a decade ago. It was a collaboration between dancers and choreographer and a composer and visual artists and and these physicists.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was this whole evening of art and music that was about different concepts from physics. It was a really cool project, but the I remember that the designer had had built this interactive like play area and the whole goal was that kids would just come up to it and start messing with stuff. He'd kind of designed it in such a way that it was irresistible and then their parents would be like no stop. And he'd be like no, no, no, please.
Speaker 2:Let them do anything they can think of, because we sometimes lose that idea that we're actually playing music. It should be whimsical and exploratory, and not that it can't also be serious and intense. But yeah, there's something so beautiful about like hitting the piano and that's a beautiful sound. Yeah, and you know, but like playing the clarinet the wrong way and making it squeak like that's. If that's a beautiful sound, yeah, and the only thing we have to learn over time is when we might want to add intention to those things, but we don't always have to. We can also just see what's inside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's very interesting to see Because when you look at music history it was kind of not recent but recent in like music history terms, where people, the orchestras, just started playing old stuff. I think they discovered box music like a hundred years after he died or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right. And so people started being like oh man, there's all this treasure trove of music that not many people have heard. That's amazing, that's groundbreaking. Let's, let's play it Right. That not many people have heard, that's amazing, that's groundbreaking, let's play it right. And it trips me out that the tradition of contemporary music is not. I mean, I love how it's coming back clearly from the festival and different other organizations, experimental venues and all these things. But why do you think there's not more of an energy to bring? The orchestra is just such a opportunity, right? There's just so many different sounds that have not been explored and all these different things. Why haven't the mainstream or other folks like took, got, take advantage, like, what's your opinion on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a really important question.
Speaker 1:I think it's a big question.
Speaker 2:The thing I can say is that you're right that oftentimes orchestras are hesitant to program the music of our time. And even when they do, sometimes the feeling in the rehearsals is we have to get through this opener so that we can rehearse the Dvorak yeah. And you know, no shaded Dvorak we love. Yeah, and what makes Cabrillo so special is that the goal is not to get through, the goal is to be in, and to be in as deeply as possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like to really push things around and flip things upside down and see what happens and make adjustments to the music in real time with the composer and the conductor, so that we make something that really honors everyone's vision Totally. And I mean there is a rich treasure trove in the canon. Like I'm not here to say that we shouldn't play Brahms first symphony and we shouldn't play Beethoven five. I mean those are great pieces, right, but I do think that we endanger the future of what we do If we don't also try to celebrate the voices who might write the next Beethoven five, the next Brahms one?
Speaker 2:And also, if we don't think about how to tell stories from people who are not, you know, white Europeans from affluent backgrounds. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's one of the the real, I think, stains on classical music history, especially Western classical music, is that it was. It was just kind of a white boys club, yeah, and and not not because there weren't great people writing, because there were some, you know, but but also the institution was kind of working according to plan, like it kept certain people out, yeah, and I do love that. Now we're seeing some movement in this direction and I think, I think partially it's coming from the fact that orchestras, like all arts organizations, are struggling. Yeah, money's tough's tough, you know, and audiences they can, like you can watch House of the Dragon at home, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:You don't have to go to the orchestra anymore.
Speaker 2:I mean, it used to be that if you wanted to hear music, you had to go hear somebody play it in person, yeah, totally. And then we got a record. That's fun, but now we don't even have to go to the concert. Yeah, and now I can stream the concert from my bed and ice cream alone.
Speaker 1:That sounds great. I don't even have to get dressed.
Speaker 2:And I do think that there has been a move recently. Some orchestras are finally coming around.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And Cabrillo's at the front. Cabrillo has always been at the front of this, yeah, you know always. And the orchestra, like you said, is such a unique soundscape.
Speaker 2:So much contemporary music is happening in chamber ensembles yes, yes I think about the work eighth blackbird did right or the chronos quartet these groups that have have really pioneered um a field and a genre, and then we have every now, every combination of random instruments making an ensemble, and that, yeah, that is so great mean. We had room full of teeth here a couple of years ago, like another great ensemble, and so it's nice when we see it start to trickle into the orchestra.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, of course, at Cabrillo. We know that, like there is so much here, right, I mean, you look back through the last you know decades, like you know these composers who are around, who we now consider canon like they were at Cabrillo, some of them, right, that's right, okay, like John Adams, and even further back, right you know like Aaron Copland was alive until you know like these people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think that sometimes it I mean it takes work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And when you commission music, you don't know what you're going to get. Yeah work, yeah, and when you commission music, you don't know what you're gonna get. Yeah, and it's a risk in some ways. But what I think is not a risk is the power of letting a composer tell their story. Yeah, maybe the piece doesn't turn out how you wanted it to. Everyone writes a dud. I've played a bad concert.
Speaker 1:It happens, sure, but you know, beethoven wrote nine symphonies and some of them are really good yes and some of them are fine and like I like bass hovind, because you can hear his, his growth absolutely, you can, you know like absolutely when you and definitely it was a string quartets too like everything, you can just hear his evolution as time has gone on, like yeah, we're glad somebody gave him a shot yeah, you know, and I I think that's special.
Speaker 1:I think there's something special about and this is also relevant in the community organizing world and just being in community, about doing the work but still not being afraid to publish the thing Right, you know, because I think there is this perfectionist mentality that is through Western culture that is all about like you don't show anything until it's perfect and that gives.
Speaker 1:To be honest, I think that gives the wrong message when in reality, we're all going through a lot of different things and when community organizing land it's about, like you know, personal development and trauma and all that stuff we're going through. And if we were listening to that mythology, like nothing would get done because everyone would be in their little siloed hole trying to heal themselves, when in fact, the true healing comes when you go into community and have to engage with people and learn how your trauma and your pain can potentially bleed onto someone else for lack of a better word and learning how to manage that and learning how to work with that and seeing why certain things trigger you and all these things. And the reason why I bring all this up is because I think what you know Beethoven is a good example, but of like compositions and modern compositions. Just let yourself create and put it out there, you know, and see what happens.
Speaker 2:And it's a real act of bravery.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:It's not easy. I mean, I could wax poetic about Cabrillo all day, but we are so lucky to have Christy, our conductor, Christian Machilaru, who is no one would dispute that he's one of the great conductors of our time, Totally. His interpretations of masterworks, you know, are as good as anyone has ever done them. And to have someone at that level of prestige and artistry commit, deeply commit to these pieces and not just interpreting pieces that exist but commissioning new pieces, yes, and dialoguing with composers and giving ideas, it is a gift, like our field you know, and we're seeing some of this.
Speaker 2:right I mean Esa-Pekka is conducting, right Mateusz Pinscher. So there are these composers and these champions of new music in the field. There are plenty of them, but we are so lucky that Christy comes to the podium with the same commitment for Ivan's piece or for any piece we play, as he would if he went to conduct Cincinnati Symphony next season on Beethoven's Fifth. And we treat the new music as if it's a masterwork, and then we interrogate the old music as if it was brand new. And that's how you get fun performances right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like you look at the Beethoven and you say, what if I just got this? Cause? One of the challenges of playing new music is often there's no recording to study, there's no performance video to watch, I can't listen to someone else tell me how this solo should go, and so it can be scary to sit in the orchestra and have studied the score and have learned your part with a metronome and marked it up, but you're still not sure what it's going to sound like and feel like, and that is such a rush.
Speaker 2:It's a special kind of fear but also excitement for me and the orchestra. Yeah, cause you, just you learn all the notes and you get everything ready, you try to get ideas built, yeah, but then in the moment you hear, oh my God, I had no idea that, like, I was going to hear the third trumpet quite so prominently.
Speaker 1:Now I want to change my tone color, you know yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Or oh, I had marked that I was with the celli here, but or oh, I had marked that I was with the celli here, but I didn't realize that I'm also with the right hand on the marimba or something. And so there's this sense of real time.
Speaker 1:It's like when you pan for gold you keep shaking it and eventually most of the stuff falls out, and the good stuff's left.
Speaker 2:It feels like that in rehearsals here we're just keep shaking it, keep boiling it down, and then I really think tonight's concert is going to be really special. I. And then I really think, tonight's concert is going to be really special. I'm really excited. It's like the yeah, it's a great night of music and it's been so fun to really get in there, cause sometimes when you play new music and when orchestras play new music, I applaud the ones who do, but sometimes it's it's enough for them to be together.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, we're all coming in together Great.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But no, together. Yeah, okay, we're all coming in together. Great, yeah, but no, no, not enough for us. Like christy's in there, like, hey, let's hear the english horn and the second violins, and are we all phrasing to the third note of the triplet?
Speaker 1:the same way yes and what a gift I love seeing the open rehearsals and the dialogue between christy and the composer and the orchestra, because christy's hilarious right, so he's just like cracking jokes you're just like my man, right, right.
Speaker 1:So he's just like cracking jokes, you're just like my man, right there, and he does it with so much grace, right? That's another thing. He's not just like, he doesn't look like he's rushed, like oh, is this okay? He's just like hey, is this okay? He's very graceful when communicating, so I think that's a beautiful trait and it's been amazing watching him work, you know, and now he conducted at the Olympics. I mean, clearly, cabrillo is like a breeding ground for something. You know, I'm starting to realize. But kind of doing a little transition here. If I gave you, like, kind of the keys of power here, right, if I was like here you go, andy, here's the. You get to change anything you want, right, what would you? How would you make the orchestra if you would want to like whatever you want more accessible or more modernized, so to speak, to make it so in marketing ways or whatever? You know, maybe you don't change the orchestra or whatever, whatever ideas you have like, what are those ideas? How do we make this more relevant in today's world?
Speaker 2:It's a great question and it's something that I think we are all working through together as an orchestra, and one thing I love about this organization is that it does feel that every voice has an equal totally is equally heard, whether whether I've only been. I joined the orchestra in February of 2020.
Speaker 1:So it's been five years came in just in time.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, you know. But then my colleagues who've been there 25 years, everybody has something to say for me, what I would be really excited to explore. We commissioned these amazing pieces. We have these composers come in and I sort of view this in several layers. I view one layer as I want to strengthen the relationship with Santa Cruz, this amazing city we get to be in.
Speaker 2:Another layer is I want to make sure that other orchestras, other conductors have access to hear these pieces and to consider programming them. Yeah, I had the chance to suggest a piece, for I teach at lawrence conservatory in wisconsin and they were asking for piece suggestions. Yeah, I love it there, yeah my orchestra conductor colleague hey, could you suggest some pieces? And I sent him a gabriella smith piece that cabrillo had commissioned and they're gonna play it next year. That's pretty cool like they're gonna play this piece that cabrillo commissioned. I love gab Gabrielle Smith.
Speaker 1:I know she's incredible, oh my gosh. Just a little detour. Last year I was like at the end I was like can I look at that score? It's wild music and she was just like, oh yeah, and we're drinking a beer on the side of the thing, looking at this score in the parking lot.
Speaker 2:You know just her music is spectacular. My, my sextet, latitude 49, has recorded two of her pieces. She wrote Hwaskar on for us, um before I joined the group, and then we recorded number nine. She's amazing, oh man, all right.
Speaker 1:But anyway, so so you know.
Speaker 2:So I want, I want the musicians in the orchestra to have the chance to share with different audiences. So there's these three spheres, I imagine. And I think, in terms of connecting with Santa Cruz, I've seen, to their credit, these community workshops that are starting to emerge. We do the open rehearsals, of course, but I would love to see us continue to connect with this community by sending our musicians to where the people are. Yeah, I mean, we do a good job here of inviting people in and we have great audience, but I think we have to take the music to people, right To where they are, and try to meet them where they are, with it.
Speaker 1:I think, and I think there's a whole new model, I think even in, like I see a lot of interconnections right, with it's kind of a safe space to explore cultural things, right. Right, like you get to talk about. I mean, hopefully like in as in, at least in this orchestra it seems, you know we get to explore. You know, like the metaphor of power, right, which is original name, was something about a metaphor for power.
Speaker 1:Yeah, White is a metaphor for power, yeah, and you know, and you get to explore these really deep, uncomfortable themes within a somewhat safe space, like you're in a hall, you're in orchestra and all this stuff. But another theme that we're seeing in political land and other stuff is that these systems have not served everybody and the way it works has been kind of the way it is systematically, has been just built to be exclusive.
Speaker 2:Working according to plan.
Speaker 1:Right, you walk into the door, there's a certain vibe that happens, and then people are usually dressed in suits and there's a whole thing. I mean, I remember we're going to just Silicon Valley. So when I was younger, with my grandfather, who's a white man, and he just had no one to go with because his wife died, you know, and my grandma and I was like the only one who was into classical music, right, so he'd be like you want to come with me.
Speaker 1:They were playing something called Rite of Spring and I was like, okay, you know, and we would go to these things and, like you know, automatically you walk in all white people, maybe one Brown person somewhere, right, but I can't find them. Uh, there's an organ player playing in the lobby and there's just like a really beautiful posh vibes. You know, and automatically I feel like, you know, uh, I, I am, everyone notices me. You know, I am, everyone notices me. Sure, right, and that's fine, you know, I'm used to that and that's.
Speaker 1:I mean, my own protectionism is one thing, but if I look like kind of like a bigger picture view, like I really look disconnected, I look obviously different from everyone in the thing in the place, right, and so the systems of that and how the orchestra acts, you know, no clapping between the things, like there's all these rules, right, you know that people don't who who are just coming in the orchestra don't know.
Speaker 1:And I think if, and then also in politics, it's the same way like when you, when you go to the city council, you have to go to this place. That's like people have a lot of things around, sometimes it's in a courthouse, sometimes you have to go to, like these different places where there's this charged energy, where it's kind of automatically filters out certain people, right, and the real community organizer in me is like no, we don't expect people to come to you when you haven't built the trust yet. It's all about trust and how you build trust is by showing up, being accountable. And if your government, if you feel like your government hasn't been accountable, you feel like this organization hasn't been accountable to you or anything, why would you go there? You?
Speaker 1:know, that's exactly right, and so trust is built, and so having the orchestra come to the people, having the politicians come to the people, is the logical way. In my head as well, it's like you go to them where they are at and then you show them this crazy, amazing thing and you start building relationships. It's all about it's human, it's human?
Speaker 2:I think it is, and I think I mean I so rarely encounter people who aren't interested in music. Yeah, they might not be initially interested in the music I'm playing, but I love asking people after a concert what did you like, what did you not like? Yeah, and like I want to know, I'm not. Yeah, like I want to know what you didn't like and oh, I hated this thing you did, but I love this other thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think there's something really like I think people are more open than we give them credit for that's the thing. We've just created a system where there are obstacles to entry, whether they're financial, whether they're just general socioeconomic, whether they're location, geography, bound, you know. I mean there's a lot of potential in this amazing city of Santa Cruz.
Speaker 2:I think for us to take our players and maybe not the whole orchestra at a time, but ambassadors from the orchestra, small players, to play small music in places where people are gathering and to really consider who are the people of this community and how might music serve them. Yeah, because what starts to happen long-term right, is that an audience develops and then those audiences want to hear their stories told, and then that becomes a value, and then composers are commissioned or people write music and then, before you know it, there are new stories being told that are not told yet. Right.
Speaker 1:It's almost like you're inspiring the community, you're giving them. I'm just thinking like, if you know. I'm just thinking like if you know, let's say, like you and a couple of other folks went to like abbott square or something, which is like downtown, not that far away from the festival, at like a hip night or something, and start playing some cool stuff, you know, whatever you wanted somewhere, some contemporary repertoire, someone there is going to be inspired, you know, and I think that's how we build culture, because my dream is that somebody from Santa Cruz, someone local you know, composes in this thing and we start getting back into the grassroots of it. As well. As you know, our global outreach, you know, because I think there is a potential here. It's not like a hip town or orchestra, you know, but there are talent here and there are folks here that could do stuff, and I just want to see collaborations with, like, people who probably don't know how to read a lick of music but are willing to. You know, sit down Because, like all, music should be equal right.
Speaker 2:I think it all is equal. Yeah, right, absolutely.
Speaker 1:But like we do, I don't know like Western culture does like prioritize. You know there is a hierarchy, right, because classical does require quite a bit of academia. I mean just to understand the terminology.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean, absolutely Like. You know, I was at the same time I was studying classical theory. Right At the same time I was studying, uh, classical theory. Right at the same time I was doing like jazz theory and one of the things I just like was like once called the neapolitan, like second chord, right or some stuff, and then this one's like it's a flat two. You know, like it's just like. You know, it's kind of these like uh ways of speaking about these things that were like okay, oh, this is just.
Speaker 1:I had to translate the, the classical theory, into the jazz theory, you know. You know octatonic scale is a diminished scale, you know, it's just a half whole, half whole, half, whole, half. You know what I mean. It's just you just start to understand these different concepts. But classical definitely have their lingo. You know, that's not really rooted in in my head any kind of logic, you know, and maybe it's a different language thing, maybe it's a whatever of compared to how I learned jazz theory, which is talking about almost the exact same chord structures, all the different stuff. It's just called something completely different.
Speaker 1:I think the cliche example is, like, you know, a half diminished versus a, versus a flat, flat five, yeah, accord, or you know that kind of deal and because, like, that's just describing like what, what the quality is right, it's like you, you flat the five and you I can't think right now, but while here it's like this word diminished and then you have to know the definition of that. Yeah, and you speak to any lay person. They're going to be like even this one that you speak to, they're, they're confused, but at least you can walk them through that Right Versus this. You're just like, just trust me, this is what this is called.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that's the thing that. Yeah, that's the thing that, yeah, I mean, if we well, I have a lot of thoughts about this it's great. No, I like everything you're saying. I love yeah, and I think the danger in, and I mean I, yeah, like I'm a huge classical music stand, like I love it. I mean me too, yeah, I play tons of, tons of the hits you know.
Speaker 2:But if we position ourselves with our you know higher education and our fancy instruments and our then if we position ourselves as the source of knowledge and the source of excellence and the source of art that we dispense to the masses, that kind of dishonors most of how art was thought about for a long time and how now I mean, like, like, knowledge comes from everywhere. Every person is artistic and has value and something to say, right, and I think, like all things, it starts from a posture of listening, right, yes, like, yeah, go play a show at the community and we should do that, I would love us. And then just pay attention, yeah, just ask questions and just listen to what they say, and like, just listen and see what. What did they resonate with? You know, what do they want to say?
Speaker 1:And when?
Speaker 2:and when some guys like oh yeah, I played the drum set and here's what I wrote, Like check it out, you know like there's so much. I think we honor not only our city, but also we honor, like the indigenous communities that we all stole this land from when?
Speaker 2:we adopt that kind of practice where it's like I'm not here to tell you how it's going to go all the time. I'm here to invite us all to a conversation. And I think the best orchestra performances start to feel that way, where the audience realizes they're as important, not because they bought a ticket, but because they're human beings in this space. You know, and I would love to see, yeah, and I think our leaders, human beings in this space, you know and I would love to see, yeah, and I mean I think our leaders are interested in this too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think the the players certainly. I feel energy among my colleagues for this kind of work. Yeah, and I love we have so many good ambassadors in that orchestra, people like Bharat my principal yeah. But I think we can do more and I think we have the resources and we have the manpower and I think we have the passion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's almost a matter of survival really at this point, you know, because, like you're saying, orchestras around the world are struggling, like there is this kind of. You know, we have a. It's almost a limited time because historically with other orchestras donors have been pretty old. You know, not to say anything bad about that or good about that, it's just a. It's true. I haven't seen any newer, like some some young donors yet. You know, and I think it's because they have. It's not something they think about. They don't think about supporting the orchestra. From the people I've talked to, they think about supporting specific issues like abortion issues or these specific things. And I guess it's how do we? It's like an identity thing. It's learning what is the identity now of us? And I think with Cabrillo I am.
Speaker 2:So I'm on the board now and I'm so stoked to be on the board. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know I got a board is so hard. Yeah, I was like, definitely it's, it's more. This was really fun. Like I've on a few boards locally and this one I.
Speaker 1:I am constantly amazed by the people, not just on this board but in this community, who don't have to advocate for change. You know, just yesterday I was sitting, I was standing in line to get get my tickets for all the shows and I was, you know all the things and this lady came up to me, this older woman, and was just like hey, I've seen you around and I just want to say thank you for being here and I take compliments horribly. Okay, I'm just like don't like. You know what do I say to this? You know, and she's like it's beautiful what you're doing and she's like it's beautiful what you're doing. We need more leaders in this town like leading, the like, change and diversity and the whole stuff. And you know, I hosted this. I facilitated this conversation with Ibram X Kendi here, where like 2000 people came. He wrote how to how to be an anti-racist you know, and 2000,.
Speaker 1:We filled out a stadium with that and that was insane For this town, for this community a stadium of a lot of white people wanting change, wanting to see change happen and curious to how to make it happen. So that's one positive side of this community is that there is a deep will for change to happen.
Speaker 2:They just need some guidance or something you know Absolutely and I think, like we, we owe it to our communities, whether in Santa Cruz or where you live. You know where you live, where any of us are based, right Like we owe it to those communities, I think, to maintain optimism.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And to believe that people can and would be willing to evolve. Yeah, because, because things that don't change and grow die one day. You know, societies, causes, orchestras institutions. But I think you know, I think there's an opportunity for us to be, I think it's an opportunity for us to be cognizant of the needs and desires of our community.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I don't think it means we have to fundamentally change our approach, but I think it does mean we have to be thoughtful about the things we choose to focus on, and I think they're doing a nice job of making these efforts and they're taking a lot of feedback from the orchestra, and it's the same reason that I would love my other spheres.
Speaker 1:It was like okay, I think I would love for these pieces, we, we premiere, to be recorded and, yes, distributed. Yes because thanks.
Speaker 2:My colleagues are insane man.
Speaker 1:They're so amazing I keep wanting to just listen to all this on spotify I know it's like I would.
Speaker 2:I would bump that and I was like where is the music? I know.
Speaker 1:There's all this small ensemble stuff, but no big orchestras, I know, and it's such a great yeah, I mean every piece this year.
Speaker 2:I would love to just have those recordings and to share them so that people can encounter them in other ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I am on that boat, whatever that means. However, we can make that happen.
Speaker 2:I think it'd be a worthy pursuit. And then the last part, I think is yeah, okay, and it'd be fun for this orchestra. You know, every few years or so let's do a run out, let's take our magic to another community, let's connect in San Francisco.
Speaker 1:Let's connect in.
Speaker 2:Los Angeles. It doesn't have to be far, it could just be an afternoon evening show. Go back to Santa Cruz at night for the tailgate. But I think, yeah, there's so much artistry on display here and so much humility. I mean, I look over into the horn section and it's just like it seems impossible that these five people are sitting together in an orchestra. You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I just look across the orchestra and I think, man, this is a really special collection of people who could play Brahms as well as anyone in the world, but are here to interpret Nina Young's music. See, that's Like that is so, it's so special and it's not everyone. Like you said, it's not every player that has that drive.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or those skills or that, that willingness, because it can be messy like it, this, this lays poorly, this is hard to do, or, oh, you know, asking the composer, could you transpose this for me? Yeah, and, and actually ivan was so helpful. We asked for an adjustment to the way the parts were distributed yeah to keep more of things grouped, you know, and and the next day we had beautiful new parts. And that's like Beethoven can't do that.
Speaker 2:I have to change those parts he still can't do that, but Yvonne did that and we've had other, yeah, and we have a great librarian who does some of that for us too. And, yeah, I think it's rare that this level of artist looks around and they just see other people just like them, who just believe in the mission, like they believe in what we're here to do, and I think it's a beautiful future for classical music.
Speaker 1:I spoke to Tom. So Tom, he was one of the original executive directors of the festival. He's the one who hired ellen, wow. And so I ran.
Speaker 1:I was at some event with him, you know, and I didn't know it was this tom. I was just like talking to some people who I invited to this thing and and I was just going off on my tangents and he, he told me this story of like days when they were pretty much struggling, it was probably going to shut down, they were not doing great, but they realized the musicians were going to show up and do the thing anyway, without anybody helping them or anything. And I think this orchestra, I think that is at the core of the Cabrillo Festival is you are the musicians and the composers, the talent, and I think that is why the orchestra, the whole festival, it is what it is. Just hearing that story, I think that it just reminds us. It's just a reminder that the core values like not every musician is willing to fly across the whole country to come here to play music that they've never heard before, with techniques that are probably somewhat challenging for them.
Speaker 1:It's an athletic two weeks yeah right, and having to walk back and forth you know, or take uber or whatever they're you know doing, uh, to do this, you know, and I think that is a beautiful and and I just want to make sure that everyone feels supported, you know, at at the end of the day, because I think that's the core of it. Right, that's really the core and obviously it should be obvious. But I think through bureaucracy and all this stuff, we lose track. People tend to have a tendency, you know, and other organizations and stuff, but I think, just reminding us that these, like you and the other musicians and composers, are really the core of this, this thing here, because that story musicians were going to show up anyway, and I thought that was just such a beautiful sentiment toward the passion behind playing this kind of music, I mean for me specifically.
Speaker 2:It's just such a. It's the intersection of two things I really care about. I really care about playing orchestral bass clarinet.
Speaker 1:I don't play full-time in an orchestra.
Speaker 2:I chose to teach full-time, which I love, but I love playing an orchestra and it's a passion of mine, and I love interpreting contemporary music.
Speaker 2:And so to get to do those two things at the same time, exclusively, feels really special, and it's the reason that the thing you mentioned, exactly, the commitment of the artist, is the reason, I think that this orchestra is poised to continue to make new and deeper connections with the community and with the field at large. I think everyone, the people who keep coming back, are the ones who like, do it because it matters, and I think those people have the ideas, have the willingness to yeah, to, to, to say yes and yes.
Speaker 1:You know. Okay, so we're going to transition to our little question around here. Do you have any quotes that you live by or think of often?
Speaker 2:Ooh, yeah, so I have a couple. One is my studio motto at the Lawrence conservatory, so my students get so sick of hearing this. But it's the process, is the outcome. And I adopted this because early in my career I became results obsessed. I, like most people, love winning. I, like most people, hate losing. But it became so intrinsic to who I was, this quantification of good or bad, right or wrong, intrinsic to who I was, this, this quantification of good or bad, right or wrong, that it kind of sucked all the joy out of my practice. Right, and for a while I walked away from music cause I just was so unhappy. I understand, and um, and I. What I've learned now is that, like, the concert tonight is going to be great, I can't wait, yeah, but the rehearsals are equally valid, like, like, the process is the point you know the it's the transformation, the journey.
Speaker 2:That's really the fun part. And then, yeah, tonight we're going to play and it's a concert. So things are going to be amazing. Things are going to go wrong. That's life, that's live. Fewer things go wrong sometimes here because the players are so good, but the music's so hard that maybe it equals out yeah, so that's one, and the other one is, I think, on the wall behind me here. Yeah, I'll paraphrase it by saying the credit belongs to the person in the arena.
Speaker 1:It's not the critic who counts.
Speaker 2:That's my favorite and I love Teddy Roosevelt's just wild man totally and I love Teddy Roosevelt's just wild man Totally, such a complicated mess of a person but I love him.
Speaker 2:But I I think in art, because we play for audiences, because we released recordings, and people criticize and I think it's important to remember that, like doing the thing is an act of bravery and vulnerability, yes, and we should not. I have, at points in my life, allowed like the fear of failure or disappointing someone or of not living up to my own standards. I've let that fear stop me from doing some pretty cool stuff, yeah, and even in the moment of a performance, I've made the safe choice instead of the musical choice.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Or the choice that I know won't be bad, instead of the choice that could be spectacular. Yes and I. Just I try not to live that way anymore. I try to remind myself like it's easy to throw stones from the cheap seats.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But like we're here, yeah, and we're going, yeah, and and we're gonna, we're gonna make something.
Speaker 1:I I absolutely love that whole speech, right, because that's why it's on the wall, I mean in like the center of everything. Um, because exactly what you're saying. And it also reminds me that I am in in the arena. You know, if I'm not, it's on. There's something wrong.
Speaker 1:If I start thinking critically about, if I'm starting to be the the critic being too nitpicky, I'm like no, they're doing their thing, I just need to. How I respond to that is by action, you know, and so I do things. You know, and so I do things. You know I'm I. I make the mistakes, you know, and I fall, and I and I've fallen, you know, and I've had to get back up again, you know, and I think there's something to being in there and then having your community with you too, who are also falling, and you're helping them get up, and so I think I go kind of expansive on the quote, a little bit more than what it's that they talk about. You know, it's a very like individual, motivating quote, but I even think of it as like I'm in that arena with other gladiators, right.
Speaker 1:And we're we're in there trying to do all these things and, yeah, all these people are cheering us on. I always think of, like you know, people at like watching sports games or something you know, and they're always like, oh, they should have done this or should have done that, and I'm like you're freaking here eating pizza, drinking a beer like you know, like and I try to.
Speaker 2:I try to also think about it, as it's also not the person telling me I'm on the right track who counts right, yeah. Like. It's up to us to decide. Like, like. What does success mean to me?
Speaker 1:Like what do I want from this thing?
Speaker 2:And yeah, with my students I have this. It's like the 72 hour rule. Yeah, so if they lose a competition or an audition they've really worked on, or they don't get into the grad school they wanted or they whatever like or an audition they've really worked on or they don't get into the grad school they wanted or they whatever like, yeah, you get maybe 72 hours to just be really down like eat ice cream on the couch.
Speaker 1:Jammies like yeah, yeah, like past, you know, like like um vague book, yeah, yeah, yeah. Lyrics from your favorite emo song yeah and then back to work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and likewise. If you win something here, like, you get the offer you want. Yeah, yeah, like steak dinner you know, yeah, like celebrate yeah, take, take you and take your friends out for dinner of course, and then back to work yeah because, like the work is the part that is so rewarding yes and I mean, you know, we see this all the time like I'm a cyclist, I read bikes for hobby and I'm obviously an amateur, right, I'm not even if I go to a race. I'm not a I'm never gonna win and so.
Speaker 2:So you know the result can't be the point. The point is like it's really fun to ride my bike right and I. It's not always easy, sometimes it's hurt, sometimes it's terrible. Yeah, I've had some bad experiences on the bike, but but I think, I think we can apply it to so much of life. Just the idea that you know like, like it to so much of life, just the idea that you know like, like it's the doing of the thing that matters, right, and yeah, I mean people are going to have everyone's got a pit. Fine, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:It's it, just shouldn't I yeah, I shouldn't affect how you or what you're doing, unless you like actually looking for mentorship and people you invite like, of course, we all have people that we've all got our.
Speaker 2:You know I've got mentors in my life who I turn to, but like this working, what do?
Speaker 1:you think Right, but not the people who are just. You know, you've been cheering you on Like. I just kind of like take a step back. I try my best.
Speaker 2:It's not easy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's so hard People complimenting you, like that lady who came up and said those compliments. I try to just take it, almost as I would take someone who's telling me they really don't like what I'm doing. No, absolutely.
Speaker 2:There's this great book called Finite and Infinite Games. Do you know this book?
Speaker 1:Oh no, but I know Simon Sinek wrote a book off. That book called the infinite. Yeah, yeah, the infinite game.
Speaker 2:So it's like the idea is, like you know, I I played chess with my son sometimes and he's been beating me recently, so that hurts, it's fine, everything's okay. Everything's fine. See you later. It's like dad, I could have beaten you earlier too, and I made a mistake. I made a mistake, it's great, but, um, you know, a finite game has an end point, like checkmate, but an infinite game. The reward for winning the game is you get to keep playing.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I and I think music is like that and I think life is like that. I think relationships and community and get like they're like, the reward is you get to keep playing. Yes, like marriage is like that.
Speaker 1:Like we should be, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like the reward is not this thing, but it's I get to play again tomorrow. It's like playing baseball. It's like 162 games in a season, man, Like you lose. It's like, well, play again tomorrow.
Speaker 1:You win.
Speaker 2:It's like okay, play again tomorrow.
Speaker 1:I love that mentality, man. Okay, Do you have?
Speaker 2:oh man, that's a great question. Um, okay, so, like a lot of music academics, when I went to grad school, um, the first time, and then again I was reading so much for you know, like articles for class and discussions, and I kind of stopped reading for pleasure. Yeah, yeah, I just kind of like you're just you know an undergrad too, like you're just you're music history textbook and you're trying to learn about, and so I just stopped reading, right, and yeah, maybe I don't know six, eight, 10 years ago I started reading for pleasure again, reading everything I can get my hands on. So I try to have like a fiction book going and a non-fiction book going and then maybe like a like a trashy you know book going and and it has just it's.
Speaker 2:I find it so grounding, yeah, and I love I, I learn, I feel like fiction books are true, like they're real, but you learn so much you know yeah. And I love. I love reading nonfiction, I love biography. Yeah, If you come to my house in Wisconsin sometimes you'll laugh at how many Teddy Roosevelt biographies I have, cause he's just fascinating and so bizarre Probably going to be my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I reading for pleasure and I think it's difficult. I reading for pleasure and I think it's difficult If I, if I want to read something short, I can open my phone and and, but before I'm sucked in, before I know it, and then I'm scrolling and then I'm some algorithms curating my reading Totally. But there's something really powerful for me about like plugging the phone in the other room being done and just opening a book, and whether it's a book that's like really challenging me as a thinker it done and just opening a book and whether it's a book that's like really challenging me as a thinker it's just a book that I'm enjoying. I just find so much of myself. It's almost like holding up a mirror and you start to see yourself and I I now read all the time Like I have two books in my backpack. You know when the fiction one and I'm reading this book about chest, you get a little better, maybe to help me be my son.
Speaker 1:I am going to win.
Speaker 2:I need to learn how to open better. But for me, reading for pleasure has just and the thing is, I've always loved fantasy stories.
Speaker 2:I mean, I grew up like Lord of the Rings and you know I read Harry Potter when they came out but as I've gotten into adulthood it's just harder and harder to do it, and so now it does take more, there's more friction to getting started. But I'm, without fail, happier every time I open a book instead of my phone. And my kids are really voracious readers. They get some screen time. It's cool Games, movies, whatever but when we go out they're not going to get that. They bring a book, yeah, and I'm so inspired by them because they just read so fast.
Speaker 2:They adopt things fast, they're asking questions and they don't know any differently, you know, and they don't have smartphones to distract them. And sometimes they're like I wish I had a phone like you and I was like actually your life is pretty great, you're good. Someone's going to email you and say you forgot to show up to the gig and you're going to get in trouble. This is a drug really ruining society. But so, yeah, reading for pleasure has totally the last eight or 10 years like changed my happiness level, and I've just read so many books I never would have read. I just people suggest things. I put them on this list, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then when I need a new book, I just go through the list and pick one.
Speaker 1:I feel so daunting by my book list. I'm like I know I feel that way too. Yeah, you know, like I don't want to calculate?
Speaker 2:Don't do it, yeah, yeah. And then I also just like to just buy books on a whim. So if I'm at an airport I'll just buy a book and read it. So then I'm like pushing all the other books back.
Speaker 1:So do I Same?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's fun.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Okay, so this question is related to that question. Then, and I'm going to change this If you had to give one book to someone, what would it be? And so you could think about that, but after that, I want to know what chess book you're reading, because I am genuinely curious.
Speaker 2:The chess book is called Attacking Chess. I forgot the author's name, but I bought it used. Is it helpful so far? It's really interesting. He was the Us junior chess champion and it's really. Yeah, I you know. It's a lot about how his approach to chess is very assertive.
Speaker 2:I like that yeah, it's really interesting and I I mean, I'm a mediocre at best chess player. No, no, and I, and I like also, I also can't. All my friends like to play chess on their phone, but I, I can't. For whatever reason, I can't visualize the game unless I'm looking at the actual board in 3D.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I like lose on the phone all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I try playing on the phone. It's just, I'm romantic, I like books and I like putting the piece down, you know, but yeah, so what's one book you would gift somebody? If you just think of any, like a book that's probably made a big impact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great. All right, I'm gonna cheat and pick two. Okay, so the book I give to people who are in any place of transition in their life, which is most people I know, is this book by robert moore called on trails, and it's a book all about how trails are formed in nature and what they mean. He sort of is extemporizing on the nature of trails and how they emerge in different animal and and plants and even, like you know, cellular level and then, and what does that mean? And he sort of is reflecting on his life.
Speaker 2:I think in the forward to the book, or the introduction, he talks about how he he came out of the closet and then immediately hiked the Appalachian trail because he just had to, he just he needs, he needs space to figure out how to live his life and how to live in this new reality he did, he'd shared with his loved ones. And and the book is so beautiful because he, just like this is one this one quote, I'm going to butcher it, but he says you know, we are all born to wander through this chaos field, but we don't wander alone because those who've gone before us have left something behind that we sense as we move. And then he says you know, a trail is a tactful reduction of options, like, like we get. It's so hard to be a person because there's endless possibilities and identities and we care about so much but we can't impact. And the trail says are?
Speaker 1:you going to go?
Speaker 2:left or right, and that's the only choice to make right now. And so I do a lot of cycling and trail running and the book, for me, resonates so deeply because I think we all can relate to that idea of feeling like you're on this continuum and I just don't know where to go. And what happens over time is these trails emerge because other people have said well, this way seems to work, and then here people disagreed, so it went both ways and you can choose, and maybe you make a wrong turn, and then the next thing you make a different turn and it takes time to move through space Like there's no, there's no cutting corners on the trail. You know, it's a really yeah, the last name is Moore, m O O R, robert Moore, he said, on trails, yeah, what's the second book?
Speaker 2:So, and then I want, I want to mention a fiction book that I love.
Speaker 2:Um, it's very short. It's by Susanna Clark. It's called Piranesi, p I R A N E S? I and I don't want to say much about it because you should, just you just have to read it. It's not very long, but but I'll say that it's loosely based on like the legend of the Minotaur and Susanna Clark got famous cause she wrote that book Jonathan strange and Mr Norrell or whatever, like long, long book.
Speaker 2:But this book is so focused and Piranesi is, it's just all about like wonder at the world and what it means to lose that and what it means to try to find it again and what it means to reckon with the things around you changing in a way you don't understand and you doing the best you can to process that. The writing is beautiful, it's it's heartbreaking and writing is beautiful. It's, it's heartbreaking, um, and it's beautiful and and I read it in like one day right after my mom passed away and I, I, a friend suggested it at breakfast and I was, I was out of town and I got on the plane to fly home and I bought a copy and I started on the plane. I finished it the next morning and I just I just found in the book so much like hope.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There was a sense that that there was beauty in every part of the world even the broken parts and the parts that have let you down.
Speaker 2:Yes, and also I found, um, just kind of my own, my own wonder at this character, piranesi, and this environment, and the ways that that Piranesi makes sense of the world around them, and the way that we try to do the same, that things happen and we don't know what to do with this development because it's devastating or it's loss or it's surprising, but but that we shouldn't stop trying to make sense like that, that the struggle is important. So, yeah, that's my, that's my fiction choice yeah, you're gonna buy some more books I have too many books, but like two more that really inspired me.
Speaker 1:Uh, what advice would you give yourself 10 years ago?
Speaker 2:I would say stop comparing yourself to people around you. So I like people, like everyone, is amazing. Yeah, let them be amazing and don't try to be them.
Speaker 1:What is something people often get wrong about you, oh.
Speaker 2:Okay, so this is a new. This is a really good question for me. Um, until recently, I've thought of myself as an extrovert. Yeah, I love people, I love talking to people. Yeah, I love, I love like getting to know people deeply. Yeah, I love like looking at someone in the eyes and like, like I love talking. But I think I'm not an extrovert. I think I require alone time to be my, the self. That allows me to do that. Yeah, and I actually think I recharge by myself, which is not something I knew about myself yeah and I think, because I'm, yeah, like I love.
Speaker 2:I love being with people, but but there's a point at which I just have to retreat to be alone and that learning that about myself has been helpful and I think it's made me a better friend, because I I really, yeah, I think I come off very extroverted and confident, but I really need this, this space, to sort of let myself, like, expand back to my normal size.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like we're going through opposite situations.
Speaker 2:Really yeah, yeah, I feel like we're going through opposite situations Really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've always been considered an introvert and I think I've conflated being an introvert and being shy as being the same when they're not. And when I was younger I was very shy. I mean, people don't believe me. Now. You are so comfortable now in your sleep. I am so not comfortable most of the time, but I'm used to discomfort. I don't know if that's even possible, but I was very shy when I was younger. I would hide behind my mom's leg and I didn't really I don't know Like I think of like my younger, younger years. I have like a weird, weirdly good longterm memory. Uh, I remember like preschool, some things in there, and like even younger sometimes, and I remember like being there's like the playground right and all the kids are playing, but I was always just. I always call it the forgotten spaces when I reflect on it, but it's like the, you know, in every building there's like a side yard or something that's like the weeds have overgrown.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got one of those. Yeah, you know, like no one really, it's just there and it's usually smaller like awkward space. It's not, it's just there.
Speaker 2:And it's usually smaller like awkward space.
Speaker 1:It's not. I was always there, you know. I was always like hanging out there with myself because part of me was like I don't want to deal with having to explain to a bunch of people like what's happening in my head Sure, you know what I mean Like I was just living this whole imaginary world and I didn't want to have to like you know, explain like physically explain.
Speaker 1:It was like a weird form of logic slash. Like you know, and I don't know, the introvert thing is just about how you get energy from. Do you get energy from being with people or you get energy from being alone? And for most of my life I've thought I've gotten energy from being alone. You know, and I think that's still somewhat true, I still think I am a definitely an introvert. But I've started to come to the realization, through my own personal development work, that, for one, I love people, I love talking with people, I love connecting with people.
Speaker 2:I love watching you with people. It's pretty funny.
Speaker 1:It's pretty amazing Um and I it's pretty amazing, um and I but I also, you know it's not I have a lot of anxiety. I have anxiety and depression. Those are things I, I work with. And so, anxiety, I have definitely a lot of anxiety, but I've learned to, you know, sit with that. So I it's this weird time in my life where I'm like what is introvert, extrovert?
Speaker 1:thing you know, and maybe I'm just a mix of both. Maybe I do sometimes get energy from people Because I feel like this conversation is definitely energizing me, but then, at the same time, just being home snuggling under the covers reading a book with my cat Sums up my life Pretty good life. At the time it doesn't feel like I'm getting energy, but, but when I go out, I suddenly feel rejuvenated. Sure, so there is a combo, right so, but I, but I'm coming from like the opposite way that you felt so grounded introvert so grounded introvert yeah and now I'm like well, am I?
Speaker 1:you know, I think it's part of I'm recently I'm going through a divorce I'm sorry, yeah, it's fine, it's fine, we're, we're, we're homies okay, good it's, it's, it's not. Uh, it's not because of us it's something.
Speaker 1:There's some good other thing involved in that, but you know it's, you know it's a. It's kind of tested me like you. You know my partner was an introvert, so I was like really seeing a genuine introverted person and then also me being like just out everywhere, uh, just kind of started to question it. Sorry to go off on this tangent but like. I totally, but it's just interesting to me that you're, you're coming in the opposite like kind of like weird directions.
Speaker 2:I also think we're sort of taught when we're young that like decide who you are now, because it's always going to be the same.
Speaker 1:Yes, but yeah, I mean if you're anything like me.
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm just changing so fast.
Speaker 1:I feel like there's certain elements of us that are harder to change, right, but then there are elements of us that can change if we commit. I am not a person who believes that people stay the same. I feel like change is inevitable. But the change we talk about on the podcast, and most change that I talk about, is usually the change for a personal liberation right. It's like the intention for liberation, for freedom of personal freedom it's beautiful, and I think that was a recent thing.
Speaker 1:I was just talking to a guest and I was like what kind of change? He kept saying change and I'm like, well, change is just inevitable. I leave this coffee out, it's going to get moldy and change form, right, and change just happens. A naturally occurring change, right, but there is a type of transformation, or change with the intent of liberation, which requires work.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you're actively connected to that process Right and so if you have that going on for you, you can change, requires humility, it requires uh, facing discomfort, requires courage, it requires all those things and it requires action above every and time, something that you do not have control over, you know, and probably it requires a bit of faith, you know, in some bigger power, bigger thing than yourself, which logically, is a side note. Logically speaking, how can you not believe in something bigger than yourself?
Speaker 2:This is interesting. Yeah, you know I. I had this conversation with someone yesterday.
Speaker 1:I yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I respect people who have whatever beliefs they want to have, but I personally find it very grounding to believe that there's more than we see I mean, you know, and let's see, let's be real, our senses are limited.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, we are on a spinning ball in the middle of nothing, but there is a strict pattern that's happening around us. Crazy sun comes, you know, the sun, the moon, like there's just these certain patterns that happen. How can you not think there is something going on? Yeah, I mean, it's just like we there, literally, is something bigger than us you know, absolutely so I don't know that's my rant for the the, the week uh, you know, I think, yeah, for for me, what?
Speaker 2:what it does artistically, yeah, is it? You know? I mean, yeah, maybe you've had other artists who've shared this, so maybe you feel this, but I always worry, like what's the point? Like you know, like I played the clarinet again, sometimes I feel it can feel like why, and I, yeah, and I think, when you start to connect yourself to like, oh, this is bigger than me, this is for the universe, or for for my ancestors, or for God, like there's something really beautiful about you, know you're, you're in a lineage of yeah, something you know what changed that?
Speaker 1:for for a while, okay, and like, because I was got really discouraged over the music business, yeah, um, and just other elements, I transitioned to kind of like psychology world, and so there was this moment where I was like working with like people who have like schizoaffective disorders and all these things, and, ironically, it was the festival that changed this for me. It was during, I think, 2016 or something like that. I went, I I decided to just buy the tickets for the festival. I didn't have much money then, but I was like you know what, like I'll figure it out, you know, and I see his piece and and you know, I don't know what everyone's politics is, but you know, trump just got elected and there was this overall just kind of downer feel. And this composer I forgot his name, but he played with Styrofoam this year.
Speaker 1:I remember he was playing with the Styrofoam thing the styrofoam thing and he was describing his piece as being a musician and composer, during these, like, really hard times feel somewhat trivial Sometimes, the triviality of it like you're doing something that doesn't even matter, like you're just making sounds during a time that, like you know, all these crazy political things are happening and all this stuff. And so he was. He channeled that kind of angst in this piece and it featured someone playing styrofoam with a bow, you know which, which was really totally contemporary music festival.
Speaker 2:Yeah, greatness.
Speaker 1:And and made my teeth hurt but, I feel very uncomfortable. But that was the point right. There was this sense of like the orchestra playing. I think they were either front and center or they were in the percussion section. I just remember just seeing a bunch of white. Well, this person's just going to town and it's going to be the cypherphone, but the triviality his description changed me really in that moment because that's what I was feeling.
Speaker 1:I didn't have the words, but I was feeling like what am I doing? I'm teaching music. I'm doing. What's the point of music? Like, what is? It's not doing anything, you know. And then, through that mentality, I started this podcast. I did a lot of different things that out of that sense of I'm not music's not enough. But through doing this, all this stuff, interviewing hundreds of you know, a hundred and something people and like doing all this community stuff, trying to transition my career and all that, it came right back to the arts. Wow, it came right back to. That's probably the most important thing. You know, that's beautiful, it's the most important thing, yeah that's beautiful, it's the most important thing.
Speaker 1:Culture pushes politics. It pushes things. It influences things on a deeper level than anyone can really understand. It's the most human thing and it may feel trivial sometimes to me, but there is a bigger thing happening here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, and I think that look at the world and there's just so much darkness, so much evil things that are just bleak, hard to watch. And yeah, we're over here playing the clarinet, but you know, I also, yeah, but I also have had moments in my life where I, you know, thought I was pretty close to the end of my wit and a song or a piece speaks to me in this powerful way and you find it in you to go on.
Speaker 1:And that's the realness.
Speaker 2:I see it right now with my son who's 11. My daughter's 9. We have a record player in the living room. We don't have a TV in the living room, tv's downstairs, so every day they get up and put on records, yeah, and listen to them. And you know, like they don't have a, like they don't have a phone, they don't have their own computer, so it's like the music is like what they have like and these records, they become important to them yeah like they.
Speaker 2:They put on a record when they're feeling something specific to help them work through it, even if they don't realize they're doing that. And that's really powerful to see, because I do that.
Speaker 1:We have the playlist.
Speaker 2:We've got the song we go to when we're really feeling a certain way and yeah, you know what's that Bernstein quote? Maybe music's going to save the world, I don't know, but I think music can really serve people as they're trying to make sense of it, and I think that's like I think you said it really well, like it gave voice to something you hadn't put together yet, when this other person talked about their art.
Speaker 1:And that would have never happened if the festival didn't exist. That would have never happened if festival didn't exist. That would have never happened if this artist gave up.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah.
Speaker 1:One person in that audience, that one person being me. Who knows how many other people were influenced by that. But that one statement trickled on my head as time has gone on and really gave me an understanding that I didn't have, and it says something to the power of storytelling, right, we've talked about, and it's it's also talks a lot about how, even if the arts are not affecting us, they definitely are affecting people in the community as well. So it's like trust, a lot of trust that what you do does matter, and I think anything with the humanities in general, like when you're creating art and writing. And, yeah, you could be a little bit more courageous and more vulnerable. I think the more vulnerable you are, the better. The more uncomfortable you are, the more hard on your sleeve you are, the better. More uncomfortable you are, the more hard on your sleeve you are, the better you know you're going, because the more.
Speaker 2:It's more accurate. It's accurate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and that's when, like pieces like yvonne hits you hard. That's when pieces really hit you hard. It was when they come from a place where the composer's probably uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know where the players that's right, no, that's right, you're right they like pour themselves into that exactly where they're, just like oh, I don't want, maybe I shouldn't, and that was metaphor for power.
Speaker 1:He did that for himself. His friend put that in for him, yeah, into a contest or whatever. Yeah, he did not give his friend consent or permission. You know what I mean. Like like he was like this is too much for people. Like that was like his mentality, which I that's art, you know. That's like. That's like. That's what you know.
Speaker 2:I digress no, no, I think, yeah, we have to. We have to be willing to tell the truth and follow it like we have to be willing to. Just and's, it's easier to say that than to do that. Oh, yeah, and then definitely from the heart level.
Speaker 1:you know it's a whole thing. All right, so here's our last two silly questions here. First one's what is your astrology sign and do you resonate with it, and why so?
Speaker 2:I'm Pisces. Yeah, I confess I don't know much about what that means, but I've heard from a lot of people that me being a Pisces makes sense, so maybe you can help me understand. What does it mean that I'm March Pisces, march 17th.
Speaker 1:Yeah, pisces are water signs, so they're heart-centered. They're heart-led, checks out. They're kind of like the flirtatious-esque sign. Uh-oh, I didn't caught me acting.
Speaker 1:You know, friendly sign, um, caught in the act, you know, you know, you know friendly like, but it's like friendliness. You know what I mean. Um, but they're also brilliant. They're a brilliant sign, like albert einstein was a pisces, right. There's a lot of pisces in history that were like brilliant, like they can think outside the box, they're visionary type, but they're also deeply emotional, right. So they're the ones that will probably complain about their problems and not really make any steps to change it yeah, I'm yeah, yes I resonate with my sign a hundred percent, absolutely, I resonate but they're.
Speaker 1:But they're like. You know they're great. Conversationalists are great in community. You know, it's like I think all water signs are healers, but pisces, specifically, is a mutable water sign. So there is a sense of them that does come off as being, if people think they're earth signs when they come off like the Virgo or something. But in reality it's like they're heart-led, they're not pragmatic-led.
Speaker 2:That sounds like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%, all right. And then the second question is if you had a power animal, like a power that would inspire you, or animal that would inspire you, what would it be? It could be made up, it could be, it could be real.
Speaker 2:Ooh, that's a great question yeah, I, um, the first thing that comes to mind is yeah, I told you I do some hiking and trail running and so you know you're always like afraid of bears on the trail. It's like you're trying to make enough noise. You got bear spray. If you see a grizzly bear, you're probably going to die, but if you see a, but if you see a black bear, they're probably going to run up. Yeah, the the black bear. It's like they're going to walk past you on their way to try to break into the food from this other tent, like what's up, bro? I know, yeah, they're powerful, but they're breaking into the snacks.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure it's my power animal, but unfortunately, that might be the.
Speaker 1:I would have said the same thing. I love black bears. I love them. They're amazing.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing, I love black bears.
Speaker 1:I love them. They're amazing. I saw my first black bear in the wild up in, I think, sonoma I forgot where it was, where those big, big, big trees are. They're not redwoods, but they kind of look like redwoods. I can't think of it right now, but we saw one and all our food was out on the table, so we were camping. All our food was out on the table, so we were like camping. All our food was out you know it's like that's the worst case.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know you should do. And then suddenly I see a black bear right and I'm like whoa, you know what? And it's just going to town on a log to gain termites or something you know.
Speaker 1:But what I like about black bears and and grizzly bears are they have the potential to be like. They have the claws, the teeth, the build to be one of the biggest apex predators in the whole damn forest. Right Like mountain lions are pretty, you could even be scared of them, you know what I mean, but they eat fish and berries.
Speaker 2:I know. And they don't go off like trying to be aggressive usually yeah like grizzlies, you know they take care of their people too right, they're like so family community oriented they.
Speaker 1:They're separate, like they. They tend to be in the same area. They let their cubs go a little bit, but they're all in the same right proximity to each other. It's not like a mountain lion, which is like they're just avoiding everything in the middle of nowhere, you know. But bears are just kind of like and they have this proximity to humans and they have this element that it makes it really easy for humans to like, personify them yeah, there's something about them.
Speaker 1:I know we always think about and I don't think it's just a teddy bear thing you know, I I think it's something about their build that reminds us of the human anatomy almost when they definitely when they stand yeah, then all of a sudden it's like wow, you're like a person, a really big person, yeah, yeah you know, with claw you've been.
Speaker 1:You're a deformed, crazy big person you know, yeah, who now has become wild, you know, and so I I really love that answer, okay, so this time, this part of the interview is where you get to say all the things like where can people find you? Uh, what are you marketing, or what do you want things? Last words of wisdom, whatever you want, man, just just give me a thumbs up when you're done.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, so I mean people can connect with me on Instagram. I'm at the Andy Hudson Um. So, yeah, I love to chat with people and I love to just also see work people are doing Like I love, I think, new music's, like fresh air, I love visual art, I love poetry, love, um, films, yeah, anything people are doing I'd love to hear. Yeah, I mean, the only thing that I really want to share about is um, um, so I and my website, the Andy Hudsoncom you can read about this project but, um, my students and I are are leading a consortium right now to create a new piece of music. So, um, fong Tran is this incredible composer, performer, a game designer living in Brooklyn, and Fong writes music that kind of intersects electronic sound and acoustic sound, and so my students and I are working together and we've got other clarinetists around the world who are supporting this project. We are commissioning Fong to write a new piece for clarinet electronics for us, and what's so cool about the piece is that Fong is really interested in in agency as it relates to performance. So Fong is imagining a piece that has some levels of of performer choice built into the thing, so that the piece might be a little different every time. Someone approaches it Right and there's something so empowering about that. And I mean Fong is an incredible artist on his own and his music is worth listening to. But yeah, if people want to read about it or they can support the project, even if you're not a clarinetist, you can kick in.
Speaker 2:And the way consortiums work, it's a very community-driven way of making music. It's figuring out what the piece is going to cost so that we can set this composer free to write the music, and then we all chip in a little bit. So my students are chipping in and colleagues are chipping in and I'm chipping in, and over time you get the resources together so that, one, the piece can exist. But two, all these different performers from all walks of life who are really different from each other and have nothing else in common, have this piece in common. And Cabrillo does this all the time to make new pieces happen. They work in a consortium where a group of orchestras commission a piece together. So I'm excited about that and I think the piece is going to be really special and Fong is such a force for good in the music world, so I'd love people to check that out.
Speaker 1:Andy, it's been an honor to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2:Dude, what a pleasure. Can't wait man.
Speaker 1:This has been Speak for Change Podcast. I'm your host, Thomas H Pedersen. Thank you so much for listening and have a wonderful day.