Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
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Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
Ep.108 Julie Lythcott-Haims | Being Black & Bi-racial in White Spaces and more
Find Julie
https://www.julielythcotthaims.com
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About Julie:
WRITER. SPEAKER. HUMAN.
Julie Lythcott-Haims believes in humans and is deeply interested in what gets in our way. She is the New York Times bestselling author of the anti-helicopter parenting manifesto How to Raise an Adult which gave rise to a TED Talk that has more than 5 million views. Her second book is the critically-acclaimed and award-winning prose poetry memoir Real American, which illustrates her experience as a Black and biracial person in white spaces. A third book, Your Turn: How to Be an Adult, is out now.
Julie is a former corporate lawyer and Stanford dean, and she holds a BA from Stanford, a JD from Harvard, and an MFA in Writing from California College of the Arts. She serves on the board of Common Sense Media, and on the advisory board of LeanIn.Org, and she is a former board member at Foundation for a College Education, Global Citizen Year, The Writers Grotto, and Challenge Success. She volunteers with the hospital program No One Dies Alone.
She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her partner of over thirty years, their itinerant young adults, and her mother.
This episode is brought to you by everyone's music school. The E the mission is to create positive and lasting change in people's lives. With music education, they do online and in person lessons, they have two locations, one at the tannery arts center in Santa Cruz, California, and another in the L Rancho shopping center in pleasure point, California. For full I am the founder of everyone's music school, uh, to sign up, you can go to everyone's music, school.com/contact in the signup form. If you say, speak for change family, you'll get our family discounted rate. Hope you enjoy the show. Welcome back to speak for change podcast. I'm your host Thomas Sage Petterson. All right, today, our, our guest today believes in humans and is deeply interested in what gets in our way. She's in New York times bestselling author of the anti helicopter parenting manifesto. How to raise an adult, which gave rise to a Ted talk that has more than 5 million views. Her second book is critically acclaimed and award-winning pros, poetry memoir, real American, which illustrates her experience as a black and biracial person in white spaces. And our third book, and most recent is your turn, how to be an adult, which is out now. So our guest<laugh> is a former corporate lawyer and Stanford Dean, and she holds a BA from Stanford, a JD from Harvard and an MFA in writing from California college of the arts. She serves on the board of common sense media and on the advisory board of lean in dark org. And she's the former board member at foundation for a college education global citizens year. The writer's grew in own success. She also volunteers with the hospital program. No one dies alone. I am so honored to have this conversation. A lot of, you know, my story in regards to my blackness and this conversation was healing and Infor formative. Her book, real American has made a real impact on me and some of my, my closest friends. I really hope you enjoyed this conversation. I'm honored to introduce Julie LICO HAES, Julie LICO HAES. Welcome to speak for change podcast. It's an honor to have you on.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Damas. I'm delighted to be here, be with you in Santa Cruz. Love it.<laugh>
Speaker 1:Man. I love Santa Cruz. Um, so before we got on, you were telling me, you identify with being black and biracial. And so I kind of wanna give you a chance to explain that, like why that is and your ideology behind that. Because I, I too identify with both those things, but I know a lot of my listeners struggle with that, their identity around being black and biracial
Speaker 2:<laugh>. So let me talk, try to tell you how I got here. And let me try not to take up the hour with this one question. Uh, I'm 53, which is important because, uh, to be the child of a black man and a white woman, as I am to have come into this world in 1967 is to have been transgressive from the start. My parents transgress rules and policies by daring to fall in love, daring, to marry daring, to have a child. Yes, my existence was not positively contemplated by anyone other than my own parents. And so I came into this world, not belonging. My parents were told, raise her to be, to think of herself as black, because the world will see her as black. And she needs to be black and proud. That is a, a philosophy promulgated by black psychologists. I get it. I wholeheartedly endorse it. That's what my parents did. And that's what they said. You are black. As I came home from kindergarten asking, what am I? Because my classmates were asking, what are you? Right? Because to be a light skin, fuzzy headed child in 1972 was to be an oddity. Yeah. So I came home with those questions. My parents said you are black. Um, but I could tell something was wrong with blackness. Cuz I had already seen the mean looks my daddy and I got, when we walked down the street that we didn't get when I was with my white mommy. So I had already put those numbers together. Yeah. And um, so I wondered why is my white mother not helping me out of the pit of blackness that I'm apparently in cuz of daddy? Absolutely. Now I didn't have that kind of analysis available to me when I was five. But in hindsight I can tell you that's what was going on. It was the beginning of myself loathing as a black person. Um, there was no term biracial then Thomas, there was no term biracial. There were nasty terms for mixed race. But um, biracial multiracial came into our lexicon in the late eighties when I was in college. And when biracial was offered, I grabbed at it like it was a lifeline. It was like, oh that will save me. Or yeah, IED I've been in my memoir real American as yep. It was as if I had gotten a blood transfusion or an organ transplant. It was like, this term made me make sense. Yes. Gave me life. I could explain my white mother. I could explain my light skin. I could explain my strange hair. Um, I could explain maybe my voice, this sort of white sounding voice as I would, was told I had, I grew up mostly in white spaces. I forgot to say that my father was a physician came up in the Jim Crow south, made it up, made it out and was not gonna be held back by racism. So he insisted that we were gonna live in the house where the realtor was not gonna know until the closing that she had just sold it to a black man and his white wife. Right. And so they re they chose that because my father was trying to sort of move on up. And so the answer was white town, better schools. It wasn't that they wanted to live among white people. It was, they wanted the big house, the nice schools and that all equated to whiteness. Right. And so I didn't grow up around black people. So I had black people looking at me as scans. I had white people, definitely looking at me as scan. Yes. And biracial was a way to say, aha, here is what I am. Here's why I'm different. But I know that for me, Thomas, it was, oh, okay. So I'm half white. Yeah. There was a little bit of that internalized oppression while I'm half white. So I'm, I'm in this different category. It lifted me out of blackness. Now I'm gonna be careful. I'm not saying anybody else claiming a biracial identity is doing it for that reason. I'm just being honest and saying there was a piece of that for me when I finally did the internal psychological work in my late thirties. Yeah. With a coach who was very skilled and helped me work all the out. I was able to say to her as a kid and young adult, I was ashamed to be black. I was afraid of black people. I was trying to be what white people valued. Yeah. And I confessed that to her, through the snot tears that were pouring outta my eyes. And yeah, that's like, I was so ashamed. I was unburdening myself from the, from the decades of having been the, the recipient of microaggressions and racism around my blackness. And as I dislodged it and sort of threw it all back up, it all came out. I came to this place of peace that no, I am black. And I love myself regardless of what other people may think. So that is my long way of saying I have finally located a black self I could love yes. And not feel ashamed to have a white mother and to have this light skin and this hair and this speech. And all, I, I have discovered that blackness is not a monolith that we are richly diverse within and among us. But what we have in common is deep and profound care and concern for black people, for the black diaspora, for the wellness and thriving of our people. And, um, so that is where I have arrived. And boy, does it feel
Speaker 1:<laugh> oh, Julie man. Um, so I was listening to your memoir. Right. And<laugh> everything you said is just, um, totally. It resonates with me, you know, I was, and I'm just gonna give you some backstory on me. So we're just on the same page, you know? Yeah. And so, um, I was, was raised in a, a white family, a hundred percent white family. Uh, my dad was really conservative. So, you know, he would be, yeah, he'd be listening to like rush Limbaugh in the car.
Speaker 2:Oh
Speaker 1:My goodness. On the way to work. Um, you know, he had love for me for sure. You know, that was not a case, but it was a color blind
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Upbringing. Okay. Right. So, you know, my mom was under the idea of she wasn't political, but she didn't have a political voice in the house. So the only political voice I had heard was conservative. Wow. Right. And so my mother, you know, I, you know, I love my mom. She's my white mom. She's my biological mom. Mm-hmm<affirmative> and my dad, wasn't my biological dad who raised me. She was like, I just wanna love this child. I just wanna give love to this child. I love can conquer all that's her, her mindset. Right. And so throughout this, I had to learn about my blackness from the world. Yeah. You know, I had to learn, you know, when I was eight years old, I remember asking a girl writing a note, you know, Hey, you know, I, I must have been a ladies, man.<laugh>, you're pretty young. You know what I mean? But I wrote a note saying, you know, Hey, will you go out with me? Yes or no. Right. Yeah. And I, I was just so excited, like nervous. I had those feelings in me, you know? Yeah. I was eight years old. I remember getting to know, she's like, no, you know, my dad says, I can't date anyone brown. And that, that was the first time I knew that this color
Speaker 2:Was problematic.
Speaker 1:It will, it was something,
Speaker 2:How old are you?
Speaker 1:I
Speaker 2:Wanna know what year that was.
Speaker 1:I'm 29.
Speaker 2:So this happened 21 years ago. That's absolutely. It happened in 2000.
Speaker 1:That's absolutely right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That makes me so in Santa
Speaker 1:Cruz. Nope. Nope.
Speaker 2:Oh no. Where'd you
Speaker 1:Grow up? I mean, this was Hollister, so it's not that far from Santa Cruz. I
Speaker 2:Know, but
Speaker 1:Hollister. Yeah. Yeah. You know,<laugh>, you know, so, you know, uh, when you drive even the hall, at least when I was there, it, it had a big sign that says welcome to Reagan country. Right. Ah, you know, and so, and you Confederate flags were everywhere. It was like a little, oh
Speaker 2:Lord.
Speaker 1:A little mini south, right.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm so sorry. Oh my goodness. That little, I just wanna go back and be a friend to that eight year old boy,
Speaker 1:Listen, man. Ignorance is, you know, ignorance is Blire right. Like I did not know. So I was confused. I wasn't hurt. I was confused. I mean, I feel like, I think the feeling I had was just kind of like, like, oh wow. I felt rejected. Right. So there's that hurt about it. But at the same time I was confused. I was just like, wow. Like something about just exist. Right. Is made an effect. I remember the dad came over actually. Uh<laugh> and um, told my parents what happened. And it was weird cuz I was, I was like kind of in the background. I, I heard kind of the just, oh, I think there's a miscommunication, this and that. And like my parents, I don't, we didn't really have a talk. We didn't have a talk about it. So I just
Speaker 2:Was the, was the dad apologizing for his daughter? Yes. Or trying. Okay. So,
Speaker 1:Well, like not apologizing for his, I just kind of like, I, you know, like I said, it was eight years old. I was kind of in the background, but I remember he was just kind of like trying to say like, oh, it was a, she, she didn't know what she was saying. Miscommunication. That kinda mentality.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Um, and so my parents just kind of, I think they just buried it under the rug. Just kind of like, they, I don't even know if they over knew I overheard that conversation. Right. Oh, wow. Wow. So, you know, and that's a thing, right. Like, and I'm not, I'm not gonna try to get too deep. I just want you to know where I'm coming from. Right? Yes. And, um, so my dad, you know, he, uh, he would, you know, bless his heart. Like he, he adopted me. So that's my last name is his last name. Okay. You know? And, uh<affirmative> you know, and I love him. Um, but you know, he, he taught me that MLK first thing out of his mouth, he was an adulter, you know what I mean? Like that kind of stuff. Right? Like all these, these black leaders, it was, I never was taught, you know, I was never taught. So when with blackness and, and listening to your interviews and reading, reading your memoir, man, uh, your, your struggles with, uh, your identity around race, I was, I, I mean, I'm gonna be honest with you. I was tearing up, I was getting goosebumps. I was getting you're just so honest yeah. About it, you know, and yeah. You know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Thomas, look, I'm glad you're holding in your heart and in your spirit. Yeah. I wrote it for all of us. Once I, once I unburdened myself of the shame, I had felt over the decades accumulated. Right. And that shame was replaced with self love. And then I began to write, and then I published this book. I, I began to be in community with so many people. Who've had similar experiences different, but similar enough, and if you had told eight year old me,
Speaker 1:Yeah,
Speaker 2:One day, you're gonna have this all figured out. You're gonna love your skin. You're gonna love your hair. You're gonna love your blackness. And you are going to be in community with strangers who reach out to you and say, yes, thank you for telling your story. It's similar to mine. I'm crying. I feel less alone. Yes. That little eight year old girl would have wept at the prospect of that bright possibility. So we are connecting right now in 2021 across you, you are 29. I'm 53. You grew up in California. I grew up in the Midwest mostly. Yeah. But look at this similarity and I, I feel less alone because of what you shared and you feel less alone because of what I've shared and your listeners who can relate. Yeah. We're having this sort of love Fest across the airwaves<laugh> of belonging. Yes. You know, around an ancestry that is not well understood and not well written about because we're relatively new. I mean, we've always had mixed folks. Thanks to, but yeah. But we, you know, to be free and mixed and to deal with whiteness in our families and the, the toll that that can take it's, it's a relatively new narrative and more and more of it needs to be told.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, we're just, we're, I mean, we're ex I feel like we're exploring this new, this new world, you know, and I think it's, it's, it's really beautiful, um, that we're having these conversations and on that note, you know, um, So I mean, this, I guess this is personal, but you, you had this, it's all personal. I know, but like you had this, you wrote it in your book. I just, I had this similar, but different kind of confrontation with my mother, my white mother. Um, and I'm wondering, cause I, I remember you were having this conversation with your mother about why you were put into these white communities. Right. And why, you know, your dad would tell you that, you know, the, the white boys won't date, you, you know what I mean? And that kind of narrative and man like me and, and just her coming to here is like, how did she, how, how is your relationship now? How did you guys get through that? This, this con, this, this, uh, confrontation, I guess this, uh, yeah, this,
Speaker 2:I think the first thing I wanna say is I love my mother. She's an incredible human she's 82. She's from Yorkshire, England, which is poor coal mining folk. Right. So she comes from the part of England that is made fun of by the proper Brits down in the more educated, um, you know, big city places. So, right. She, she went to west Africa as a 22 year old to teach and found a sense of belonging among Ghanaians and then Nigerians that had alluded her in her home country in England. And she fell in love with a black American, my father. So she came of age, right. Uh, as a white woman, um, discovering self in west Africa and then moved to America in 1969 and, uh, and discovered American racism then for the first time. So she's got a pretty unique life story that I hope she'll write about. Yeah. One day, hopefully before long, cuz like I said, she is 82. Yeah. Um, so she has done a lot of work and um, and really, I say she's done a lot of work, but actually I think she genuinely in her spirit. Yeah. 100% loves all people and particularly black people. Yeah. So, but she still has work to do around what she doesn't know and can't know because she walks through the world as a white person. Right. So she's about as close as one could hope to that sort of deep and profound understanding, but it can lead to blinds of spots and presumptions like, oh I know she's gonna go teach other people about racism and sometimes hold up, hold up, mom, let me, let me, let me help you understand where, where some of the edges are in your own understanding. Um, so we, we chose to live together. We chose to buy a home together in Palo Alto to afford the quote unquote best schools for our kids. And so my mother and husband and I went in on a house 20 years ago and that brought us back together and it was BU wonderful. And it was hell for all of us. It was both amazing and horrible. Yeah. Uh, for reasons of relationship and my mom and I have consistently done the work through fighting through a conversation through understanding. We are now at this place of we've we've dug up the bodies and the bodies often had to do with race ultimately. Yes, because I had a lot to say yes and a lot to be angry about. And as I say, in real America and the memoir, my father's been dead 25 years now. So he's the one that I to have a face to face with and say, daddy, how could you have moved me right to Middleton Wisconsin. It was all white. The Jews were not even considered white. And they were only two Jews. And one black film asked he is a parent who should have known better. Right. Uh, but they had a very patriarchal mm-hmm<affirmative> gendered relationship. Daddy made the decisions, you know, they were, were very loving. They loved, you know, it was a great marriage, but nobody, nobody took daddy to task for anything. And I didn't have the knowledge at the time when he was alive to do it. So I have had to take it all out on my mom. Yeah. I mean, and I say that a bit tongue in cheek. I, I don't think I've been overly antagonistic, but there's a lot of pain in an anger. Yes. That wants to be heard. And I am now at a point where I, I don't subjugate my own feelings to make it easier for others. Yes. Which may make me a little unpleasant to be around, but I've decided the truth as far as I can bear to tell it needs to be told.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. I mean, that, that, that inspires me. And thank you for sharing that. I mean that, you know, me and my mother, we have, we have a complicated path ahead of us, you know, she, um, you know, I think she's suffering fr like, you know, I've always kind of, uh, been able to like more and speak and, and care about what other people feel definitely want again around race, you know? And that's been something that I'm coming to terms with, um, at the moment, right. Where we had recently had a conversation because of my pretty transparent uh revealings of my life and being out there and, um, you know, she, she was offended and emotional, but I couldn't, I couldn't lie. Right. You know what I mean? I couldn't lie about the fact that when I was in high school, my, my brother, uh, in my brother in, in, no, my, my stepbrother, uh, you know, he, he was, he was one of the people at the school who would walk around with like people with Confederate flag belt buckles, you know, and he had a Confederate flag thing on his little, like quad in the garage, you know? And so, I mean, it, just to me like why, like how could you not think that that would be problematic, um,
Speaker 2:Step stepbrothers. So your, your adoptive
Speaker 1:Father, she got remarried
Speaker 2:To someone who had a child.
Speaker 1:Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And so, okay. Yeah. And so he was in the house with me. And so there was just, and you know, a lot of races at that school. I mean, like, like I said, I've been primarily in white spaces as yeah. You know, I'm
Speaker 2:So sorry. Oh, no. I'm so no, no, no. Listen to me, listen to me, that was so problematic. I am so sorry that you had to deal with symbols of hate toward the black community in your own family unit. Yeah. I'm so sorry. I too, and I'm very careful in how I describe this, cuz it's hard to talk about family publicly. Yeah. But there are members of my white family. Yeah. Um, and I have both white biological family and I've married into a white family. Right. Um, who have really done problematic things around race. And I find it, I found it in the wake of George Floyd's murder. So painful to hear from people who follow my work from friends. Oh my gosh, are you okay? I'm thinking of you and the silence of white family.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Broke. My heart, broke my heart. And I reached out to a friend, a black female coach who does, were, uh, you know, executive coaching. And I said, I'm just, I'm writing them this email to try to explain this is a really hard week for, for black folk. Right. Remember it was Brianna AMA Arbery right. George, like all of it. And I just didn't even get replies. And I said, I just don't know what to do. I'm trying to teach them how to love me. Yeah. And my friend said, you're assuming they want to. And I just, you know, it was like a slap in the face. Like this was a black friend saying this to me. So I didn't feel that, you know, I just felt like honest, raw talk. Yeah. And I was like, wow. Yeah. And am I gonna try to chase this? I'm like, I'm try to teach just cuz these folks are in my family doesn't mean they're any better. It doesn't give them sort of automatic care about blackness and black folks. And that I have found to be such a painful reality.
Speaker 1:I, I am. I'm there with you. Um, you know, during, you know, AMA Arbery George Floyd, Andre, Taylor's back to<laugh> back to back. Um, like I was on Facebook a lot. Right. And, and then social media man, like it has, has just opened up people's views. And I have a family member who put something on that was just saying like, can just agree that all lives matter. Right. That kind of rhetoric. And I was like, and I, and I responded in a very compassionate way. I said, you know, it's not about, you know, just black lives matter. Right. I tried to educate and I made it in a very nice way and he's, and he just kept saying, but like all lives matter don't you understand? And yeah, he is a white white man. Right. And uh, his brother came on and I was just trying to have like a really meaningful conversation. I know I, I should have learned back then. Yeah. It's hard to do on social media. Right. Almost impossible. Um, his brother came on and this is, this is family, you know, this is people and just didn't say anything, but just blue lives matter.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just, and I was like, man,
Speaker 2:Yeah. I know. I,
Speaker 1:I was, I, I felt like alone, you know, you know, I felt, I felt alone and you know, and that's, I mean, to be so that's where I really, that year, even before Amma Arbery and George Floyd and Brianna Taylor, that that year was already a year that I was coming to terms with my blackness. Yeah. Right. So I was already identify like much more confident about identifying black, realizing that lack of not a monolith monolith. Right. That it's a diversity of folk. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, it was just, it was a, definitely a come to God moment for me. Um, and yeah. So I, I appreciate you sharing that because<laugh>, I feel like not many people have that experience. Um, yeah. And I mean, it's all around me, you know, it's all around me either. It's it's, you know, uh, folks that are purely against, you know, black lives matter and black lives or people who are just silent about it, who don't wanna messy themselves, they want to be comfortable. Right. They don't wanna go outside their comfort zone to underst stand.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This what we're feeling, you know, this isn't, this is nothing new. Like you, you said in your memoir, right. This isn't anything new. This is right. This is, it's just coming to surface with modern technology and with, yeah. Just the rise of a movement.
Speaker 2:You know, I feel it in my body, the stress strain we know. Right. We can, yeah. We know from public health officials that the stress that accrues in a black body, just trying to endure the information, you know, trying to figure out what news to listen to and what not to listen to. So we're not retried constantly worrying about our family members, our children, you know, that, that we carry this constant stress is something the medical community is yeah. Really coming to appreciate the right people in the medical community. And, um, you know, it speaks to our tremendous Brazil as black people and brown people. But it's also, I, I found myself thinking over this past year. So when my mind is cloudy, you know, when I can't remember when I'm, you know, I'm in a talk and I lose my train of thought, you know, am I experiencing cognitive decline? There are psychologists who would say that could be anxiety. That's happening.<laugh> well, why would I be feeling heightened anxiety this year? Oh, I don't know. Right. An insurrection. I had a panic attack seriously. Three days before the direction, cuz I felt, I didn't know it was coming on Jan January 6th. I've been afraid since I've been afraid for a long time that they were gonna come with guns whenever Trump left office. Yeah. Whether he was impeached out or voted out or term limited out, absolutely. His people who think this is a white country and he is, you know, I, I just knew they were coming. I mean, I write about it in real America. And I ended up thinking I was having a heart attack one night in early January, January 3rd, I think gas, you know, and they, paramedics came and they're like, you're not having a heart attack. You haven't had a heart attack, you know? Right. But we, whatever pain, you know, you are afraid, you're feeling like we encourage you to go into the doctor. So I went the next day and, and you know, accepted that I had basically had panic. Yeah. Um, I had been feeling physical pain felt that it was my heart. Yes. And, um, it wasn't a heart attack. I was just having this, you know, I, I I'm, I I'm inly trying to explain that we don't know the sum total of all of this and how it sits in our minds and our bodies. Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And we have to practice you and I were talking about Juneteenth before you started recording and about, you know, you chose to and rightly so to celebrate it as, um, an example of the endurance of black excellence and black joy. Yeah. And that is such a powerful force. And a, it is what, for me, it counteracts all of this, the stuff on the other side of the equation, which is fear and stress and anxiety. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man. You know, I, I feel so blessed because the people I'm surrounding myself right now, you know, are, are creating these programs. You know, this program here in Santa Cruz, um, called black health matters. Right. Okay. And it's, it's all about promoting things within our community about black health. Right. And, and understanding that we need to be healthy. We need to be healthy in our bodies and our minds. And, and so they're funding all these different activities to promote black health within the community because that the data's there, the data, you know? Yeah. What racism is a national health crisis now. Right. You know, data's there and it's, It's just remarkable. I mean, January 6th, uh, I can't, I can't express how much anger I felt on January 6th and co and going up to that, I knew something was gonna have happen. Yeah. We all knew something was gonna happen. Yes. Yeah. We do. You know, and I mean, I, I even put a podcast episode out and I was, I was, uh, unfiltered. Let's just say that I was, I can't even listen back to it. Most people couldn't even listen through it cause I was so angry. Yeah. You know, and you know, I just really felt it. And I, and I really, what really made me mad was the people trying to, who had power, who had influence,
Speaker 2:Who,
Speaker 1:Who were just like, oh, I'm not gonna even, I'm gonna pretend this is not happening cuz there's nothing I can do about it. I'm like you have influence. Yeah. And I'm talking about Instagram people, I'm talking about like people with a following and like really good, like people who need to hear this and hear the problem, problematic, uh, situation. So I just was really, um, Disheartened and angry and I felt in my body and I mean that, that lasts, you know, that stress lasts. Um, and I I'm, I'm, I'm known to kind of shrug things off, you know? And so for me, I can feel it in my heart and in my soul, you know? Um, so I really appreciate you telling me that too. And I wanted to ask you about something and I don't know, it was like briefly mentioned in your memoir, but it really hit me. So I'm married to a white woman. Right. And I, you know, I love Lauren. Lauren's like my, my, my half bird, I, she only knows what that means, but she's like my, I was like, I was like, everyone knows what that means. Um, but she's like,
Speaker 2:I love it. She's positive.
Speaker 1:Right. You know? Okay. Um, and, and<laugh>, you know, I, you know, I love her and I, you know, I was surrounded by white spaces growing up and you, in, in the memory, you kept saying you marrying a white man was almost inevitable. Yeah. Right. Yes. You know, so one part I wanna, I want to hear more about that. And then the second part you said yes. Sometimes you, I don't, I don't have the quote, but you said sometimes you question, you know, marrying a white man instead of a black man to help raise your black children. Yeah. You know, to have that. And I, and I really just want to hear yeah. Your view on that, wherever that takes you.
Speaker 2:So who writing memoir.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm sorry, man. I, it just, it just, just popped up. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:No, I did it. I wrote it. I said it. I chose to publish
Speaker 1:It. I know it like the day after father's day
Speaker 2:<laugh> no, no, no. It's no, it's it's actually, I think 100% good. Okay. Okay. Number one. I adore my white man.<laugh> yes. I call my white man.<laugh> for purposes of this question, I will refer to him as my white man.<laugh> we? My white man and I have been together. Some people are gonna find that problematic and they gonna say, I can't believe she said that. Let me stop. Dan, Dan and I have been together for 33 years. Yeah. He was 19. I was 20 when we fell in love of, and we never looked back. Yes, he is. My writer die. He is the best thing that's ever happened to me in a life that has had a lot of great things. So I absolutely adore him. We have a, he is my equivalent of Lauren. Yeah. Okay. So that's clear. Yeah. Um, I did say in the book, given that I was raised in white spaces raised to care about the white male gays, it was inevitable that I was seeking validation from white men yeah. In the workplace, in educational settings and in relationship. So when I became a self-loving black woman and therefore not only loved myself, but loved black people and brown people, as I saw them and met them and engaged with them, it became clear to be like, oh wow, had my life been diverse. What are the odds? I probably would've ended up just as likely I would end up with a brown person as with a white person, absolutely black person. Right. So I was playing with that on the page. And, um, I, I happened to be with somebody I adore had I not settled down until I was 40. Chances are, I would have coupled up with a person of color or a white, I don't know. But I was at that point available or open to all in my heart. Um, and then I say, I regret that I've given. So I have two children. They're multiracial, obviously. Um, they look very different from one another one has very light skin. One has skin that's slightly darker than mine. Um, and so for the child who is darker her in the world, my son, I have worried in the era of black lives matter that I have given my black son. And I'm I'm label labeling him as that for the purposes of how he is viewed by the outside world. Absolutely. When he walks down the street, I've given my multiracial black presenting son, a white father. Yeah. I've given a, him, a father who cannot teach him how to be a black man in America. Okay. Now obviously I would not have this son without Dan<laugh>. He is his biological father. So I'm right. I'm not being literal here. Yeah. Right. I would not have the son I'm worried about yeah. Without the white man who fathered him. Right. So what I'm saying is more philosophically. Yeah. What have I done? I have brought a child into the world. Yeah. By having by, I I've I've co-created with a white man. A child. Yeah. Who has brown skin and his male. Yeah. I wish this child had a black father yeah. To teach how to be a black man in America. Right. So that's what I'm in anguish over. Right. Okay. It's a very philosophical, existential thing that I can't change. And I can't, I would not give up. Right. I adore my son. I adore my husband. They, they are related to one another. So, um, I that's, what's going on.
Speaker 1:I completely understand this. I mean, know me coming into my own blackness, right? Yeah. Just like owning it and just being like, yeah, this is how the world has perceived me. This is who I am. And this is what I identified. No shame, cuz you know, raising black folks thought I was too white, white folks, you know, I was always put in the middle. Right. I always put in the middle and, but yet everyone would view me as black. Right. Right. You know, it, it was just what it was. And even though, you know, like what you were talking in the beginning, I would talk white, white. Right, right. Uh, quotes, quotes. Right. Um, so, but yeah. You know, recently I've been, so I been so loving of myself in all aspects, my, my body, my good, my, my skin, good, you know, myself and my, my blackness. And so that has opened up my mind to exactly what you're talking about to see black love blackness around me, you know?
Speaker 2:Good.
Speaker 1:And so that has, you know, I'm gonna be honest. I has questioned like everything in my life. Yeah. Everything, people I've been friends with, my relationship, everything, you know? Yeah. Luckily<laugh>, I married outta love, like just genuine love. Right. So this is also a philosophical, um, thing, but it's definitely shown me like, you know, if I was this mindset back then, like you're saying like when I first met Lauren like eight years ago. Yeah. I would've probably looked at people differently. You know, I probably would've seen, I don't know. Maybe I would be with like a person of color black, black woman, you know, because I would've known that as actually a possibility or something sort of thing like that. Right. Yes. But you know, I'm also very spiritual. So I think like me and Lauren were like kind of meant to be so it's good. Good. So there's but there's that aspect, that identity aspect. Does that make sense? What
Speaker 2:It, it does make sense. And I think my question to Lauren and Dan is what has changed for them as their partners have done this work to love our black selves. Absolutely. Cause they met us when we were less person, self loving. Yes. And maybe they were okay with that. Maybe we just seemed like the, you know, like my best, my white friend in high school. Yeah. I went to an all white high school, so my best friend was white. And she said in my memoir, I, I relayed this. She said, I don't think of you as black. I think of you as normal whiche. She meant as a compliment. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. I remember that. It wasn't a compliment, but she meant like all those black people don't worry. You're not them. You're normal. So I wonder if Dan and Lauren and all of those white folks who chose to love, uh, black folks who were not self-loving yes. We're just trying to be, you know, to make it in a white world. How do they feel now that we have come into our own? Are they uncomfortable? Are they worried? Yeah. Are they feeling rejected? Are they doing the work that they need to do? Yes. Certainly in the era of black lives, certainly at black lives matter. Certainly when you decide to have children together, a white parent, as you well know, having grown up the way you did. And as I well know, have to do the, has to do the work
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:To try to get as close as they can to walking in the shoes of their black or brown child. Yeah. And many don't cuz they say I'm color, I'm a color blind race. Doesn't matter. I don't. Right. If they, if a white parent, if a brown child or an Asian child is saying that they are refusing to accept that their child experience quite likely will be different in the world. Yes. And worse. Right. So you've gotta try to get in your kids' shoes, bring a lot of compassion, bring a humility, a curiosity to learning what you PO all you possibly can so that you can show up for that kid. Yes. And help strengthen them. Uh, so that, you know, they can endure what comes and feel the joy and the ex you know, the pride in, in their ancestry.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Absolutely.<laugh> I have that question too. And I think, you know, I'm like, I'm making assumption cuz Lauren's not here. Right. So I'm making an as assumption, but you know, she, right. When the black lives matter thing with George Floyd and all that stuff happened, she started, I had books around, you know, she started reading the whole white fragility. She read uh IMEX Ken's books. Yeah. She read like she just started doing stuff like that. And then actually putting in the effort of like trying to use her own privilege and having these conversations like automatically it was, it was without prompting, you know, or anything. Um, which I thought was, I, I just didn't really even think about, I was just like, wow, she actually just is just doing stuff. Um, and so yeah, I would love to hear how this is. Yeah. That's a great question. I, I wrote that down and that quote from your memoir about normal. I, when I heard that<laugh> I was, I so many times, so many times have people, right. That, uh, radiator, uh, something similar to that. And they have put me in a really interesting place, but just on who is ignorant about blackness. Right. And just, um, being like, huh, you know, you're not like the rest of them, you know, you're, you're kind of more normal, you know, they wouldn't, they didn't have the terms. I didn't have the terms, you know, and yeah. It's very interesting. And so, um, I'm gonna just like talk about some family stuff that I'm curious about also a selfish question of mine. And so, you know, you have two, you have two children, right? Two children. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and by the, when you wrote the memoir, Avery was like 15, right? Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:She's now 19 about three 20. Yeah.
Speaker 1:<laugh> so, you know, raising her. Cause she, you were saying in the memoir that white folks were seeing her as one of them almost. Right.
Speaker 2:My fear.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Your fear. That was
Speaker 2:True. That was true.
Speaker 1:Right. Your fear mm-hmm<affirmative> because she's coming off more like lighter, like more right. Very
Speaker 2:Because her skin is so light colored and her hair doesn't have much of a kink to it. It has a curl to it, a lot of curl, but a loose looping curl. Yeah. Yeah. So I was afraid that white folks would not see, you know, me in her and her black ancestry. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1:<affirmative> right. And so being a black woman and biracial woman raising a, a child that is not doesn't look like you. Right. Or, you know, how did that, you know, that's, that's almost like a fear of mine, to be honest, you know, that's like a fear like after loving my blackness. Yeah. I'm like, what happens if I have a kid and he is white, you know,<laugh>
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, um, not to be too, too, uh, too blunt or anything, but that's, that was coming in my brain, you know? And I'm just curious if, what, what have, how did you educate? How did you, any difficulties that came up for you?
Speaker 2:Well, this is one of the more, um, I wanna say painful, but, um, poignant. Yeah. Parts of the book. I've been the author of this book now for three and a half years. And so, you know, I've been in conversation with a lot of people and in the book, as I explain, I'm so delighted to be having a daughter. So my son is older. Yeah. Uh, my daughter's younger. He's a boy. He looks like me. Uh, but he's a boy. So, you know, I didn't resemble my mother cuz my mother's white. So when I find out I'm having a daughter, I have this delight like, oh my gosh, finally. Yeah. There's going to be somebody on this earth that looks like me. Yeah. And all respects. That's what my mind was doing. And, and I mean, I should have started by saying I absolutely adore my daughter and my son there just feel lucky to be their mom. I
Speaker 1:Think that's a given, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, I, I want to underscore it because in the book I go to this painful place is I'm bringing my daughter and son with me into the world, into white space, into black spaces. I notice myself fearing what will black people think of my very light child? And I stay in this space of, oh my gosh, am I ashamed? Yeah. Of her. And I come to Nope, I'm ashamed of me. Yeah. I'm ashamed of me. And I was so up by this point. It's like around race. It was as if this baby girl was the physical embodiment of my fragile blackness. I wasn't black enough to pass along blacker genes to this child is how my mind was feeling about things. Look, when we choose to be in relationship with people of a different race, we have no idea what those genes are going to scramble and be. And um, both of my kids resemble both of their families in different ways. Oh yes. And um, and it's just, it's, it's something that it's you, we just don't know. And what people are gonna look like. You can't take that for granted the way you can largely in families where everybody's of the same race or ethnicity. And um, so we, you know, I would say we, you can't go, if you're worried about that, about what you might feel toward a child that doesn't resemble you. And I would say this to anybody, um, that is worth working on that is worth therapy. Yeah. Because that's for you to work out. You don't want, you know, you don't wanna put at, on the kid, look at how many kids come into the world and their parent is inherently biased against them. Yes. Because they don't like who you resemble. You know, you look like that person who is problematic and then the parent takes it out on an innocent child. Yes. You know, we need to be working that, that stuff out with, with a therapist so that we don't pass on this trauma to our own child and make them feel that they are not who we wanted. They are not desirable. They're not the right color. They're not the right. Whatever the irony is. It's usually the darker kids who are mistreated in families. Right? Yeah. Whether you're black or you're Indian or whatever it's oh no, no, you got it. Right. It's the lighter ones who are favored. And here in my story, we have the inverse. That is, I was worried more about the lighter child. Yeah. Um, about, you know, the, my feelings, like what does it, what does it mean that I have given birth to somebody so light instead of to somebody so dark.
Speaker 1:Oh man. Yeah. I, I thank you. Thank you. Um, that's beautiful. And I, and I completely resonate with that and I really do like this idea of turning it back on yourself and your own blackness. Right? Yeah. Because I think that is true. It's like, you know, you're just, you're feeling something lacking in yourself, you know, and myself I'm saying, you know, you know yes. And so I'm, um, projecting that and I,
Speaker 2:I gotta say one more thing, Thomas, I'm sorry. Absolutely. One last thought. Yeah.<laugh> so I grew up self-loathing
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I wrote a memoir about it. I have hoped to have raised children who do not loathe their black ancestry, the way that I did, I have chosen things differently. Yes. Um, for them, I, there are plenty of things I could have done better, but I know I did some things. Right. And I was delighted to hear my daughter talk about her beautiful cousins who are all darker and in some cases, much darker than her, just with admiration, for their beauty. Yeah. What she was doing that as a teenager, I was never as a teenager, looking at black women and finding them beautiful.
Speaker 1:<laugh> right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Okay. So I knew she had that instilled in her. Yes. She had that. Ugh. You know, look at them. I, you know, almost if only I was darker, you know, might have been what she was saying. And whereas I, as a child was like, why do I even have this tan skin? I hate it. You know? Yes. And so I'm happy for her. I know she has a hard road. Yeah. Because she is in spaces where people may not realize she has any brown ancestry, black ancestry, and she hears she's in danger of hearing what white folks say when they think they're by themselves.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know, and I hope this child is self-loving enough and strong enough and brave enough to stand for us and herself and all of us and say, excuse me, do not say that around me. Mm. You know, you're talking about me and my people mm-hmm<affirmative> right. I have hoped that I have raised that child because I know the pain, the pain. Yeah. I've read about the pain of passing, if you can pass and choose to that comes with its own psychological hell.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Oh man. And it sounds like you have<laugh> it sounds like you have, so, um, and that being said, I'm just gonna ask one more question for this part, and then we're going to our second part.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And this is a big one. Oh.
Speaker 2:As if the others have
Speaker 1:Yeah. These, these, these other ones have been, uh, pretty, pretty small ones. Okay. I'm just kidding. Um, but the, this, this one is just in your view and your philosophy, your a thinker. And I, I, that's why I love listening to you talk. That's why I love reading your, your, your books. Thank you. Thank you. Um, so in the future, I think there's gonna be more multiracial, more biracial. Yeah. People, right. That's already happening. Yes. And there's already this ambiguity around like how to identify yourself and around blackness, around everything, like we're just talking about. So what do you think the future of blackness is gonna look like? What do you think the future of race is gonna look like in our country? Like going down, like even like 50 years, if we get that far global war and everything, you know what I mean? Get that far, you know, you know, I'm all,
Speaker 2:You know, what a complex, it's a complex question. Absolutely. It deserves a complex answer, which is, I can't imagine that we will have a eradicated colorism in 50 years. Yes. It is an embedded rule within Western culture and other cultures as well. And, um, that is hate toward the other is embedded in us going back anthropologically for forever. We have been tribalistic. We have had an us them, and that is something humans have had and, and needed for our survival. We've had to know who the out group was, who the in group is, you know, where we belong, who to fight against. That's just, that's our animalistic nature. And yeah, I hope we can become more enlightened and outgrow that cert we do it on the basis of class. We do it on the basis of ethnicity, within racial groups. We do it on the basis of religion. We do it on all, you know, sexual, like we're always looking for ways to otherwise. Right. And demean. I mean, that's just unfortunate, a har a hu a big part of us as humans. I do think we're capable of rising above it. I have worked on the internal, uh, bias inside my own spirit. Yeah. Um, and therefore I know it's possible for all of us to do it. Uh, but in 50 years, I don't know. I do think the presence of multiracial people makes things blurry. Uh, um, um, I don't, I don't, I mean, I think some science fiction writer and I'm sure they have, I don't read science fiction, but you know, imagine a world where everybody's, you know, some shade of tan because we've done all this mixing. Yeah. You know, I, I, I am sad about the culture we're losing. I'm sad about the, the, and the traditions and the music and the dance and the food that gets lost when we just all become a melting pot of beige. Yeah. Um, I do think that might solve the racism problem because we won't be able to tell looking at somebody, oh, you're that? Oh, you're that I don't like you, I don't like those people. It would be easier on this driving down the road if everybody are the same color as the police, but I think that's, yeah, I'd rather not solve racism that way. I'd rather solve racism by really, uh, getting everybody educated spiritually, holistically, historically, you know, like understand the history, understand the, why, understand why these systems are the way they are and commit to undoing them. I mean, that's the hard work. And I think, I think we're actually capable. Um, and I'm an optimist, so I'm just gonna hold out hope that that that will happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I absolutely agree. And I think on top of that, I think it is the systems. Right. You know, even if we all kind of get racially ambiguous, we'll always find other ways of othering each other. Right. Unless we do the deep work and that's, you know, that's rooted from, you know, I have a friend here who's an activist and she always calls it. Um, the European, I think disruption instead of white supremacy. Right. That's her her word because it kind of gives it like there's an ending to a disruption. Right? Yeah. And<laugh>, she goes off about a lot of other, other things, but, um, nice. You know, but, but this idea that, you know, collo colonialism and all these aspects of separation, like we need to start just doing the work on ourselves. And so that we can really start to, you know, see each other as human beings. Right. I mean, that's the end goal, right. Is just to be able to exist with each other without killing each other. Right. Right. Exactly. You know, and yeah. So I think that was beautiful. Uh, thank you for that.<laugh> all right. So we're gonna move on to our second part of the interview here. Yes. All right. The first question. Do you have any quotes that you live by, or think of often
Speaker 2:The late poet, Mary Oliver, a white woman wrote in one of her poems, tell me, what is it you plan to do with this one wild and precious life? I do believe this is my and yours and every listeners and every human's one wild and precious life. I do believe it's wild, meaning unplanned, uh, meaning can go in any direction, meaning free and wonderful. And, you know, just, and I do believe it's precious as in finite to be cherished. Um, and so that quote is with me, uh, it's in my new book, your turn, how to be an adult rooting for young adults to make it on the path of adulting and be just fine. Um, so yeah, that's the one that's in my mind most these days.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. Um, what is something that you believe that other people think is crazy?
Speaker 2:I believe in a bit of mysticism, I have had enough experiences in life, uh, that I can't explain scientifically. Um, I watched my father's soul or spirit leave his body when his, when he died. Yeah. Uh, I saw a physical phenomenon that doesn't really have language. You couldn't have captured in a photograph, but he was a live one moment. And I watched and followed his spirits as it sword. And I looked back down and he was dead and I knew it. Not everyone else, nobody else realized it except the hospice nurse. And she noded at me. She knew that I knew. And so I had that experience and I, it was profound and I'm delighted by it. I'm delighted to know that there are things we can't yet explain with our mathematics and our scientific principles. I'm very much believer in science and math and all of these things. I'm just saying, yeah, there's another realm. And that's clear to me and that my saying that is gonna make some people laugh and I'm fine with that.
Speaker 1:No, that's beautiful. I resonate. Um, what new belief, behavior habit has most improved your life?
Speaker 2:Mindfulness. My executive coach who helped me work my out around race, around the triggers, deeply embedded in me. She taught me mindfulness. She said, if you can learn to discern your, having a feeling, where did that feeling come from. What did you just see or hear that made you feel what you're feeling in your body? You know, more, you can notice what your body is trying to tell you in response, the more you can understand where the triggers come from and you can interrupt the reflexive response, which is to punch someone in the face or yell at them or leave the room, or, you know, um, and that has allowed me to regulate myself and my thoughts so that I can actually be the person I want to be. Mm-hmm<affirmative> in conversation in community, in meetings in family, uh, mindfulness has changed my life. I'm a practitioner now for 14 years. It is as natural to me as breathing now. Whereas once was this clunky thing that I thought was, woo, woo. Uh, I trusted her enough to give it a try and it has changed my life.
Speaker 1:Oh man. Oh man. I'm gonna have to incorporate that. Uh, what was your best investment under a hundred dollars?
Speaker 2:Oh, uh, She was, um, I have no idea, uh, best investment under a hundred dollars. I just have no idea.
Speaker 1:Doesn't have to be anything complicated either. It's not, you know,
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I do get my feet done.
Speaker 1:<laugh> yeah, no, that's,
Speaker 2:Uh, and there's something about I don't get'em done. Right. But when I do, I just feel so fortunate, um, that there's somebody with this talent who can look after my toes and my cuticles, you know, my feet get a little bit of a massage, relax. I, I laugh when they do the Dremel tool, which is that thing that takes off your callus. It makes me giggle. And I look around the, the salon and I'm the only person laughing. And I always say to the technician, is this, am I just weird? They're like, no, some people do laugh, but it's just, I have very ticklish feet and yeah. So it's this whole sensory experience and, you know, um, I treat myself to it. Uh, I wouldn't call it an investment per se, but I it's a treat. And I, I really love it.
Speaker 1:I like where its all talking about before black health is really important. Right. So I would think of that as an investment. Okay. Um,<laugh> when you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do?
Speaker 2:I take a deep breath. My mindfulness practice will tell me you're feeling overwhelmed. You know, you're feeling something you're feeling anxious. And I just notice it. I scan my body. I, I know that it's not, if you're doing good, deep breathing, then the panic or whatever, the more acute feelings they can't both simultaneously exist. So sometimes I go into a power pose, hands on, you know, arms out hands and fists on hips. Yeah. Legs, width of shoulders, take a deep breath. It just, it sounds silly, but it does reenter me. And um, it's also very self-compasionate cause it's like, okay. Yeah, you're feeling something. It's okay. It's valid. It's okay. But you're okay. And so my, my mind is saying you're all right. You're all right. You're all right. Um, as the stress or the concern is flowing through me, I unpack it in my mind. I deal with a little bit of my body and that gives me enough of a break.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I love the combination of somatic and, and you know, mental energy that you do in that. That's beautiful. Um, if you had to give one book to someone, okay, I'm gonna make it two books, two books to someone of two books. What would they be?
Speaker 2:Thomas? I was gonna say like, man, you can't this question, can't ask a writer. Like what's the one book, you know, I, I don't one book, but I would say if you're giving me two, I'll say, first of all, for any black person listening or brown person who has been at a place, uh, of self-loathing that's my term, internalized oppression. Not really sure if you know, are you ashamed of being your skin color, your ancestry? As I once was the poetry of Luci, Clifton began to open me to the self-loving place. I now inhabit. She has a collection she's uh, died a number of years ago, black poet. She has collection called good woman, which, uh, made me say if she is possible, if these words are possible, then maybe I am possible. Yeah. The other writer and it's not a book, but it's a writer. James Baldwin has so many books. His writing from 60 years ago feels relevant today. You know, you catch an interview with him from way back. Yeah. It sounds like it's responding to this moment. So poetry is very ethereal. I'm, I'm, I'm pushing poetry, but I'm also pushing James Baldwin's nonfiction. Yeah. Um, as a way to dip way back into and, and, and dwell in this philosophical sociology, historical space on which his thoughts sit. Yeah. And just be reminded of how long this has all been happening. I mean, it's been happening for centuries, but Baldwin is an older thinker who's been gone for so long who just so relevant to our current moment.
Speaker 1:Is there any Baldwin, um, works that you recommend?
Speaker 2:I just, I love all of his nonfiction. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Cool. All right. Awesome. Um, what would you give your, what advice would you give yourself 10 years ago?
Speaker 2:Ooh, Hmm, 2011. I would say, uh, it's funny, cuz I was about to make a major job change. Um, I would say, I would say keep going. I would've said keep going. I, I was on a journey and I would say keep going, keep going. Be careful. Be mindful. Be brave.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Who do you think of when you hear the word successful?
Speaker 2:Um, who do I think of? Uh, so many people I, um, Oprah Winfrey comes to mind. Yeah. Um, she has become one of the three most dominant voices on the planet probably. And she came from so little, um, in terms of what she was given in life. And she just persisted at that at being who she knew she was. And I'm calling her successful. Not because as she's a billionaire, but because she got real clear on who she is and what she wanted to do with her life and she's doing it. And I think that kind of thing is available to all of us though. So success more broadly is, you know, who are you? Why are you here? What are you good at? What do you love? Go be that person don't look back<laugh> and let, in other words, it's an internally derived definition. I'm not, I no longer derive my success definition based on what other people think, money, house, education, cars, what neighborhood you live in cetera. It's uh, no, I know within myself that I'm feeling good about who I am and what I'm up to. And that to me is success.
Speaker 1:Beautiful.<laugh> yes. Um, here's the last one is what is something people often get wrong about you?
Speaker 2:Who knows? Right? Because I, I, unless they tell it to me straight
Speaker 1:A thinker.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I know what I have. I'm afraid people get wrong about me. Um, you know, I'm, I feel I'm often worried that I need to be more humble and more, uh, that is I have gotten feedback, but in the white world that I'm too big for my britches.
Speaker 1:Mm yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I got that feedback a lot in academia when I was a Dean at Stanford, uh, I had a lot of white men, big men, women telling me to sit down and, and I've learned that it's important to them. And if I want to make it with them, I gotta sit down more. But uh, I don't wanna sit down. I wanna show up in the spaces I wanna be in and be, and have the impact I want. So, um, so I think people think I'm too big for my bridges, but I think that's their racism. Yes. Speaking
Speaker 1:<laugh> yes.
Speaker 2:They, they don't want me in that place. And so they're seeking to tamp me down, but I'm here finally to say I'm not here to be tamp down.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I'm here to be on fire
Speaker 1:<laugh> yes. All right. So here are the two silly questions. First one is what is your astrology sign? And do you
Speaker 2:Saari
Speaker 1:<laugh>
Speaker 2:And I love it. Oh, I'm a Sage look, look what I just said. I'm hearing you on fire. Sage is a fire sign. Boy. I walked right into that without knowing it. I have, are you also,
Speaker 1:I'm a Sage hundred.
Speaker 2:There we go.
Speaker 1:Somehow hundred percent.
Speaker 2:So when I was a kid, I would get those astrology scrolls. They were like these scrolls at grocery store, like at a store right there by the cash register. And I would buy my horoscope and read it and just be like, yes, yes, yes. And yes, yes, yes. And it was like sad. You're blunt and bold. And you're like huge heart and really sensitive, like, you know, and I was like, holy Molly, this is me. So yeah, I really identify, however, my beloved Dan, who of discussed is also Aari and we could not be more different. He is quiet and reserved and mm-hmm,<affirmative> never angry. Never really emotion. Like he's capable of deep love. Yeah. But he doesn't have the volatility that I associate with sages. Yeah. So I think he's kind of maybe a Capricorn he's near the cusp. So maybe that
Speaker 1:Explains it. What's his, what's his day.
Speaker 2:December 18th.
Speaker 1:Yeah. He's Sage. It just it's. It's interesting. Hey. Yeah. He's Sage. I mean, but I see two types of S I'm I'm I
Speaker 2:What's your
Speaker 1:Day. I'm the 10th. I'm the 10th.
Speaker 2:December 10th. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I'm November 28th.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah. So you're coming from Scorpio land.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But like that's out of a week past Scorpio. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so<laugh>, there's two types of sages. I see. Right. There's the ones who are, and I think of it as like a dual sign, you know, half horse, half man. Right. So there's, it's the most Phil right on the Zodiac. They're always the thinkers. Um, but they have that horse, the animal. So it's, it's the, the duality of nature and hum. And like that kind of philosopher, right. The one who wants to kind of think in the head and kind of be more contemplative versus the person who wants to be more wild and free, I mean is all about freedom. Okay. You know, that's, that's what they're obsessed with. Right. And um, yeah, the only reason I know astrology so well is like I worked at a hippie shop and uh, it was like 10 years ago, maybe a longer than that. And uh, I love it. A girl turned me down because I was a Saari she's like, you're I can't date you. Cuz you're Saari so I was like, oh, was, is this, what is this mean?
Speaker 2:I need to learn about this. What
Speaker 1:Is yeah. And so I, I asked, I worked at a hippie shop, which allowed me to ask everyone their signs. So I started asking everybody's astrology signs and taking notes on little behaviors I saw, you know, of like, and so it would help me guess and see what, if it, if it was like a, it was actually something and it, it was fun, man. It so much fun. The
Speaker 2:First two boys I loved, you know, in like eighth grade, uh, were Pisces<laugh> and we just, those did not end well. And I, so I decided like I had this thing against Pisces. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I, I<laugh>, my wife gives me a really hard time about that.<laugh> I, I have a thing. I, I always like, uh, freaking PIs. It's like a whole thing in my head. I'm like every time. Yeah. Every time. Yeah. It's a, it's a thing. It's a thing. My wife's a Leo though. So we're, we're all fire signs, you know, fire signs and fire signs. Nice. All right. The second question is if you had a power animal, what would it be?
Speaker 2:<laugh> I don't think this is the right answer, but the animal that comes to mind is a Malamute puppy. The Malamute puppies have been getting me through<laugh> the pandemic. I don't have one. My husband's allergic to all animals, I think hates animals, but, and doesn't hate, but doesn't love. Um, anyway, so I have to look at them online. They're these little rolls. They're like little paper towel rolls is their body. And then their feet are like little toilet paper rolls. Yeah. So they're just four rolls of feet, four rolls of body. And they sort of Totle along and they have been my power animal cuz I turn to them and I'm like, Ugh, Malamute puppies. Okay. I have a little dose of Malamute puppies and then I feel powered up and I can go do what I need to do.
Speaker 1:That's the perfect answer. That was the perfect answer. Good.<laugh> all right. So here's the time for your last words? Yeah. Just let us know what you're up to. Any new books. You got any publications where we can find you that whole deal.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Thomas. Yeah. And to everyone who's spent this time with us, we really appreciate your lending. Me your time. My new book is called your turn, how to be an adult and it's for anyone struggling with adulting. It's not a, a critique of y'all. It's like, yo, I'm older. I hear. Or you, I care. Let me try to help cuz I'm actually rooting for all of us to make it. And so this book is addressing like, yeah, it's hard. It's terrifying at times to be more or less responsible for yourself, but you can, I've got some tips. I've got some stories, my own stories, vulnerable shares about. I did wrong and learned from also, I've got the stories of 30, one of the people in there and that's what I wanna lean on these 31. Other people are a very racially diverse bunch. They're diverse across the gender spectrum across the sexual orientation spectrum. They're diverse in terms of how educated or not educated they are. They're diverse in their mental health situation. They're diverse in their, uh, in their neuro neurotypical to neuro atypicality, neuro divergence. Um, they are the world's major religions they're they just they're adopted they're in foster care. They've, they've dealt with infertility. They're estranged from their parents. They're close to their parents. They've had black lives matter situations happen to them. They've they've been harmed at the hands of police. They've been harmed at the hands of opioids. Um, know they come from Appalachia and they come from the inner city and they even come from, you know, the Midwest and, and I, I have at least one Texan in there as a California. And I knew that was important to include Texas. And<laugh>, I, I have a vegan in there so, you know, and dog lovers. And so this is a book that's trying to be for everybody. And it's my way of saying don't you dare write nonfiction and fail to include everybody on the page, too many nonfiction writers write about and for straight white middle class educated people and they don't realize they're doing it cuz they just assume everybody's the same. Yeah. And so they just write about, and, and I have refused to do that. So this book actually comes with a commitment to inclusion embedded in it. And it, it speaks to my philosophy as a, um, the person I am around writing inclusive nonfiction. So that's my newest book. It's it's about three months old and uh, you can find it everywhere. Books are sold, audio ebook, hard cover. Um, my website is Julie LICO haes.com. I'm on social Facebook, Twitter, Instagram at J Licon HAES, maybe even TikTok one day. So also who knows I am on TikTok at J Lu, but I haven't done anything yet. So I'm still trying to figure it out.
Speaker 1:<laugh> that's awesome. Oh man. So just, just a personal note. I'm actually reading your turn right now. I haven't finished it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a long
Speaker 1:Book, but, but you know, the reason I haven't finished it because I'm, I'm putting too many post-it notes and highlighting too many things in there and I'm like, man, good. It's just really a good, like<laugh>, it's almost like a guidebook, you know, it's like, um, you know, one of the things that, that, that popped out me was like always respond. I remember just part of the book on top of my like respond to people. Yeah. You know, and I think a lot of people in my generation and we have this thing where we, we have this fear of responding or AC acknowledging we receive something or, you know, we get like ghosting and all these weird yeah, yeah. Things like that. Um, so yeah, it's a great book. Um, just, I'm not done with it, so I can't give it a fool on thing, but you know, I'm
Speaker 2:Being well. I, I appreciate it. I'm so glad you have it. I'm so glad you're reading it and let me know what you think once you're done, I'll be delighted and, and eager to hear your thoughts for sure.<laugh> right.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Julie LICO Hayes. Thank you so much for being here. I I'm beyond excited to put this episode out and I'm just appreci your time. Um, thank you so much. This been speak for change podcast.
Speaker 3:I'm your host Thomas Sage Federson have a wonderful.