Ep.146 The Composer Leader: Riley Nicholson's Journey in Contemporary Music as a composer & Executive Director of Cabrillo Festival of Contemporary Music

https://www.rileynicholson.com/
https://cabrillomusic.org/
What does it take to be a budding composer and also leader in the world of contemporary music? Riley Nicholson, Executive Director of the Carrillo Festival of Contemporary Music, and Neo classical composer, takes us through his compelling journey from his early days in percussion and piano to his present role in arts administration. 

Hear about the mentors who shaped his path, the unique challenges of focusing on composition during his college and graduate years, and his personal evolution in finding his own voice within the vast landscape of contemporary neoclassical music.

Curious about the balance between artistic vision and executive leadership? Riley shares his experiences moving from the creative sphere into the world of arts administration, emphasizing the fulfillment that comes from supporting the broader arts community.

Learn about the essential qualities that make an effective arts administrator, from understanding diverse musical styles to translating artistic visions into reality.

Discover how Riley's leadership is making impactful contributions within the arts sector, driven by a mission that marries creativity with executive acumen.

Riley also offers insight into the complexities of orchestral funding models, audience engagement, and the need for inclusivity in the arts. From inspiring encounters with renowned composers like John Adams to the profound influence of genre-bending artists such as Tim Hecker and Arca, this episode is a treasure trove of musical inspiration. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hi, I'm your host, Thomas Sage Pedersen, and welcome to Speak for Change podcast, where we explore positive and lasting change in all areas of life life. Our next guest is Riley Nicholson, Executive Director of Carrillo Festival of Contemporary Music and Contemporary Neoclassical Composer. Riley, welcome to Speak for Change.

Speaker 2: 0:40

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:54

Yeah, no it's an honor to have you on and I'm excited to jump into all the things and Thank you.

Speaker 2: 0:59

Thank you for having me in a better place either both location wise, with Santa Cruz and with the festival, oh man.

Speaker 1: 1:06

But you. So something like that stood out to me is that you're actually a composer as well, right? That's right, yeah, so what? What is your history with music and composition?

Speaker 2: 1:18

Yeah, well, my entire dad's side of the family is are they're musicians of some stripe? Um, I think they all. My dad is the only one that doesn't have a music degree. He's the only one who's an amateur musician, but he's very talented and very good as well. Um, so it's sort of in our blood, um, and and I grew up playing percussion and band and wind band and cause they didn't really have orchestra. Um, in, you know, in school districts, especially in the South, orchestra isn't as common. Yeah, uh, so it was wind band. And then I also started taking piano lessons around the same time I started.

Speaker 2: 1:57

Um, got a little bit of a late start there. I started on piano when I was 13. Oh, um, and from the get go I would come up with little songs and solos for myself. Yeah, um, even before I probably knew what the word composer was. We had a family piano, so very fortunate to have an acoustic piano in our house. Um, and, yeah, I loved, I loved playing it.

Speaker 2: 2:20

Um, I blame my sister for most things. Um, no, she's wonderful Um, but she, she started when she was younger and it wasn't a good fit for her. So then when I came along, they were like oh, he probably won't like it either. But so they're like, oh, why couldn't I have piano lessons? It's like, oh well, we didn't think of that, so got a little bit of a late start. But I, I caught up and, um, yeah, and then in college start, started composing more and more and found that I wanted more agency over what I played, um, and I wanted more voice and and not just do what the conductor told me or do what my teacher told me. I wanted to create my own music, um, and so I started doing that more and more. And then, when I applied for grad school, I decided I wanted to focus on composition.

Speaker 1: 3:11

Yeah. So what did I mean? For a lot of people, I don't think they know what that kind of schooling looks like. What does a composition-focused school situation look like?

Speaker 2: 3:25

There's a lot of variation out there in terms of how it's structured, especially for composition. Yeah, you know, people are familiar with the private lesson and like having a primary teacher for learning an instrument, right, and it's similar, like similar to that with uh, you are assigned, usually a professor, your main composition teacher, and you have private lessons with them. You're not playing an instrument unless you're, you know, playing your piece on the piano, right, you, but they are a private instructor and they're working with you to make your music better, uh, one-on-one, and so that's the real crux of the. There's obviously lots of other courses at work involved, but in terms of your primary teacher, it's, it's similar to how you'd be assigned if you were majoring in trumpet, um, but the private lesson is a little bit different, but, um, there's still that one-on-one model and that sort of tutor protege kind of model Right, yeah, I think composition, when you're thinking of like teaching it, even if it seems like a traditional model, I find that thinking about it is hard right, like how do you teach composition?

Speaker 1: 4:44

You know what I mean. So what, what? So what did your private teacher, you know, work with you on?

Speaker 2: 4:50

Well, I'll start with saying it. It is a very difficult thing to do to teach composition and the best competition composition teachers don't have their ego in it. Yes, they're able to. David Garner was one of my uh teachers in in grad school at San Francisco conservatory of music and he was incredible because we couldn't be more stylistically different. But he really was able to understand what I was going for in the piece and what my stylistic strengths are and help me hone that and and and and. That's sort of a level of genius that I don't have, but that great teachers have.

Speaker 2: 5:34

You can, and there's great, great composers, but they could be horrible teachers. Cause again, it has to be not about how good they are as a composer, it helps for them to be a good composer, but they need to be able to have a bigger perspective and have understanding of styles and musical languages outside of their own. So it is a real talent and it's unique to find a teacher that can do that.

Speaker 1: 6:00

Man Well, that's inspiring. So what do you think about when you compose Like what is your style If you had to? I know that's like a. I don't know if that's an unfair question or not but, like what is? What kind of style do you lean toward? Like you know, is it more avant-garde, like kind of a tonal, you know that kind of music, or is it more minimalism, like what's what's your, what's your vibe?

Speaker 2: 6:25

Yeah. So if I was giving jargon, I would call it post classical music.

Speaker 2: 6:34

And I use that term directly quoting Kyle Gahn's book downtown music writings from the village voice, I think is the subtitle Um, and in that book he really traces the lineage of downtown music down and, of course, new York, um, and that's starting with a lot of the minimalist composers, but it's a little bit more expansive than that Um. So so, yeah, so minimalism is a huge influence, but it's also, again, it's a little bit more expansive than that in terms of if I were to try to trace a lineage, you know and what, what kind of compositional camp, if you will, I'm inspired by Um. It's, it's that reaction to what, what kind of defines post-classical music. Without having read the book recently, you should read the book.

Speaker 2: 7:27

Here's my version of it, sort of succinctly. It's a reaction to the overly scholarly, overly intellectual, overly pretentious uptown new music scene that was happening in the 60ies and seventies. And downtown New York, um, which is very different than New York is today. Um said, let's, let's react from that Like we actually care, um, you know, we actually care, like about the, just the form and structure and the intellectual rigor. Now, that's not to say that that's not important, but let's not be so tied down to these things that one can write a dissertation on and it's just, you know. Anyway, I don't know if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Is that kind of. Maybe I'm off, and it's totally okay if I am, you know. But I'm thinking, like you know, like atonality and 12 tone and serialism kind of lives in that kind of academic camp, right, you know that kind of intellectual, you know, intervallic composition kind of thing where you're like constantly, where, like when you listen to it depending on what piece, obviously, but like you can, you can hear the dynamics and like the atonality and all that stuff. But it's more interesting when you like analyze it. You know what I mean. Like it was just like this kind of depth, I guess, of academia and it seems like a lot of like. You know, like Philip Glass, for instance, right, he came kind of from atonality in his schooling but then eventually, because that's all they were teaching, yeah, exactly Right, and then eventually just went off and, you know, did his own thing, you know. So it's, you know, this sounds like it sounds perfect. I would love to hear your compositions. Yeah, where can people hear your compositions?

Speaker 2: 9:39

All your streaming devices Apple music, spotify. I have a website, cool, um yeah, and that's not just anyway. I I can sort of see the new complexity composers uh, getting up in arms right now, you know there there are exceptions um but, and they're like I.

Speaker 2: 9:59

There's a couple elliot carter pieces I love oh, totally you know and, and there are exceptions and there can be some really visceral, meaningful, but maybe it's about um. So we're speaking in generalizations here and like the reaction to um an overall scene. Yeah, you know um, so yeah, it's all general.

Speaker 1: 10:18

It's all generalizations, really, and, uh, every composer has different, different perspectives and different things, even though they're in like a kind of camp.

Speaker 2: 10:27

And even if like and this is something I've learned even if there's a style like that is not my style, or like I don't begin to know how to do that, but that doesn't mean it isn't valid. It's just not what I do.

Speaker 1: 10:42

Yeah, and there's pieces there's.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Like composers like Thomas Addies adore a lot many of his works. I could never do that. It's just not. That's just not how my brain works, you know. So you know, and I think that's that's good, like we can't be everything. We can't be everything. We can't do everything. We have to find our voice and yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:07

Yeah, no, that's wonderful. So when did this transition come for you from being an artist and a composer and a pianist into kind of more? Is it art, administration or executive leadership, like that kind of world? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:25

I still don't know what to call it. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:27

Yeah, I'm just kind of like that, that world yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:31

Yeah, it depends on the context. Sometimes I'll call it arts admin or arts leadership, right, but yeah, so it happened in grad school. Part of it is, you know, utilitarian. Yeah, I was looking about to graduate a very expensive city. I'm like you know, I'm happy with what I'm learning. I'm happy with you know, I received a couple of small commissions, but it's not enough to sustain a living. It wasn't for me at that time and still isn't.

Speaker 2: 12:04

So there was a practical element to it, um and I. But I also knew that I was interested, um, in the arts in general. Um, and I had done some collaborations with ballet and loved contemporary dance, and so I saw there, there was an internship at post ballet through um grad school program, and that actually ended up being one of the best decisions of my life, not only because, you know, I gained some really valuable skills, but I also, um, gained an entire community through that. So, um, so, yeah, so I really hit it off with the director, robin Deckers. We're good friends to this day and, yeah, just, I learned that I loved being part of something, I love supporting something that it's not about me.

Speaker 1: 13:02

Right.

Speaker 2: 13:02

So so through arts admin, production leadership, whatever you want to call it, um, you know you're able to be part of productions. You'll be able to be part of artistic conversations beyond yourself and have a bigger impact than whatever artistic project you're working on. So I love being part of the conversation and feel like I'm giving back and supporting other artists, and then I get so much out of that too. You know, get exposed, make connections, and I also learned that I was good at it. I think I I, because I am a creative.

Speaker 2: 13:36

I understand that world. I understand, you know, I understand that world. I understand how artists speak and I'm able to work with them to bring their visions to life. So I have that. But I also have a sort of down-to-earth kind of street-smart sense to me that's able to actually then take something that's in the clouds and bring it to fruition and make it happen in the real world. And so I think that's why it's been such a good fit and why it's so enjoyable and again, being able to. It's meaningful and fulfilling to be able to feel like you're part of something bigger.

Speaker 1: 14:15

Yeah, what a great answer. I don't think I've ever heard it, that kind of answer said that way before this this sense of humility and, uh, growth beyond yourself, you know, like being able to be part of something that's bigger, being able to be part of something that's just not about your own craft, your own art, and seeing that grow Like what a beautiful, like philosophy, almost, you know it's like. It's almost like a type of philosophy of living by you know, and I think that is that's powerful, you know. I think it's really powerful.

Speaker 2: 14:52

I think that's our roles at arts administrators. If we're making it about us, then it's a problem.

Speaker 2: 14:58

Right, yeah, absolutely, you know not to say like I certainly have a voice in, I mean especially as executive director. But even if you're not the director, you have a voice in shaping something and making it come to life. But you know it's it's not to serve you, it's to serve the mission of whatever organization and the division of the artist Right and and the more you're able to understand that and have that perspective, the better it's going to be.

Speaker 1: 15:29

Amen, you know that's, that's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing. And I think you know, I think you know, I think you, you know, just been watching you recently. I'm like, wow, what a cool combo you know of like an artist in this role. I think this is like one of the last executive director at the Cabrillo Festival was not a musician, right, and it's kind of cool seeing someone who is like skilled in composition and also skilled in executive leadership and it's really uh, it's an inspiring combination. So, you know, thanks for for for doing that, my pleasure.

Speaker 2: 16:08

Yeah, I mean obviously Ellen, my predecessor at the Cabrillo festival. Um no, she was not a musician, but she. She did deeply understand the creative sector and had been working in that sector for a long time, oh yes, and been working in contemporary arts for a long time. So I think that's why it also worked for her so well. There is an interesting layer, though that I am. You know, I can pull up the score.

Speaker 1: 16:37

Yeah, and you know like there's a little bit deeper.

Speaker 2: 16:41

So that is interesting and curious to yeah See how that ends up shaping the role and yeah it'll be, it's, it's. It's great to be able to go deep. Lost my train of thought oh, you're good, You're good.

Speaker 1: 16:58

I just wanted to quickly ask like what are I mean for one? Do you ever get to like see, like composers and musicians you're just like totally a fan of in these roles?

Speaker 2: 17:13

Yeah, certainly.

Speaker 1: 17:18

Yes, and like who are some artists that you're like inspired by, that may be living still, or composers that you're inspired by and just the broad general could be a rock band. I don't, I don't care, you know well, I was um, I was only.

Speaker 2: 17:34

I've only been starstruck once, like they're all right and I had seen him before.

Speaker 2: 17:40

Yeah, it was just because he was sitting seated behind me at a concert the whole time and I didn't even realize it. So it was like it was like sudden and I wasn't prepared for it. And uh it was, it was john adams. I mean, that's a big deal, yeah, who has a long history with the festival. So I need to get over whatever. Um and and I've met him another time and it was like, but he just it just like surprised me, because I was at amherst conservatory of music I think it was hot air music festival and then, yeah, I was speaking and then I just turned.

Speaker 1: 18:12

I'm like, oh, oh man, that's amazing. So who? Who are your like inspirations, like? Who do you listen to? Like what's your, what's your playlist like?

Speaker 2: 18:24

Yeah, Well, the entire lineup on the Cabrillo festival for 2024. Oh man, I love this. Of course I have favorites, I don't. I, I diplomatically can't choose anyone this year.

Speaker 1: 18:42

I'm just saying I'll tell you after the mic is off.

Speaker 2: 18:46

I am a fan in the non-orchestral world. Somebody who's been a huge influence that I sing their praises is Tim Hacker.

Speaker 1: 18:56

Oh, who's that?

Speaker 2: 18:57

He is an experimental electronic ambient artist and I love every single one of his albums, which is so rare for, like even with him, my favorite artist like this album, yes, this album, no, thank you. But every single one of his albums is incredible. He comes from, I think, like the EDM world, but, but his music is no long, no longer really resembles that at all. Um, he uses a lot of live instruments, um, and every album it's different. Like one album he recorded a uh, what do you call it? A Kyoto, um, japanese traditional instruments Don't quote me on the pronunciation of that. Another album he worked with the chorus, um, and then he just plays with those sound waves, like Plato, you know, and and creates these really textural wild soundscapes that are sometimes very peaceful and sometimes very experimental. And, um, yeah, he's been one of my favorites, and then not for the faint of heart, but Arca is sort of similar sort of experimental electronic genre, bending very queer artist that I'm a fan of.

Speaker 1: 20:18

Oh man, those are, those are great things. This other question is more we're going to do a little pivot here Contemporary music. What is that? What is contemporary music In accordance to the Cabrillo festival, right? So what is? How would you describe that to somebody who did not know anything about? Like contemporary music. It's such a vague term.

Speaker 2: 20:50

you know it's like because it just all it means is contemporary means, like of today yeah exactly, you know, which certainly is correct, right, for the cabrillo it's.

Speaker 2: 20:58

The short answer is it's living composers, it's of today, it's music of our time. For orchestra, in our case, right, because it's the Cabrillo Festival and it's a festival orchestra, and that's what really differentiates us from. There's a ton of new music organizations. There should be more, but we're really the only ones, certainly the longest standing, that that has a sole focus on contemporary music for orchestra, yeah and so. So that's the simple answer and sort of what differentiates us.

Speaker 2: 21:29

But to your deeper sort of genre kind of question is much harder to answer. I think to me, like it kind of depends on your audience. You could describe it as contemporary classical because most of the composers have to be trained. I'm going to say most, and for some most, but the usual path is you're trained classically and you might depart completely from that, but a lot of composers are trained classically to understand how to orchestrate, how to create the score, um, et cetera, and so so some people could consider it contemporary classical. However, within the, you can parse this a lot of different ways and depending on who you're speaking to in the field, contemporary classical might mean something very specific, like that's why earlier, when we asked, we asked what do you do? I was like I call it post-classical.

Speaker 2: 22:22

I mean, it's a lot of jargon, it's a lot of specifics and even within the fields I say post-classical, not everybody agrees with that term or even knows what it means. So we really need better, um, better ways to describe our genre. Um, I feel like and unfortunately I don't have the answers.

Speaker 2: 22:39

But but, but I will say that that, yeah, it's a tricky thing to explain, you know, I I think music of our time for orchestra is sort of the best way to explain it, and I think, and I think that's what the cabrillo festival, our mission, is, it's, it's supposed to be a wide perspective of what the orchestra can do, and I think every year we need to do, every year we need to be even better about trying to widen that perspective. Um, and and so stylistically, that can mean any number of things like um, it's, the orchestra is kind of a blank canvas. So it's like how do you, what genre is a blank canvas? Right? Well, it depends on how you paint on it. Yeah, you know, uh, and the and yeah, so I get.

Speaker 1: 23:29

it's just really interesting to me cause I've been, you know I I've loved this festival, uh, ever since I first attended. Well, technically, my first attendance of the festival was I, the first. Philip glass kind of got me into it, right, and my buddy was really into Philip glass.

Speaker 1: 23:49

I told him like oh he's performed or he's performing a work at San Juan Batista mission, right, and that's something that was the festival did. I don't know if they're still doing it, but I but they did do like things at the mission and I was raised in Halster, so I know the mission like the back of my hand. It's not that far away from Halster and my buddy turns out like his wife, like got him that gift for his birthday like tickets to the fill of glass. I ruined the surprise on accident. I was just like like oh, let's go, and um, but I I totally snuck in to this Philip Glass thing. They got tickets, they went and I just kind of pretended. I was like just like a fancy person walking into the, the audience room and uh, and when the performance was over I left through the back and I ran into phil glass amazing I haven't even met him yet, and he was just a weird dude, you know I loved it.

Speaker 1: 24:46

You know he was just like oh nice to meet you you know, and then, uh, at the time was marin also was the conductor and at the time I didn't know any of these people, but they all just like we're. We're just like talking in this little space, and it's just so funny because I totally snuck in, I was trying to be discreet leaving and I run into, like you do, the opposite to the two people but, like, ever since I've seen the festival, it's always been inspiring to see all the different diversity of like orchestration, right Like.

Speaker 1: 25:16

I've seen people play on styrofoam. I've seen people play like electric guitar in the orchestra. I've seen all play on styrofoam. I've seen people play electric guitar in the orchestra. I've seen all these different percussion things, people playing on cars and all this stuff and I so want to bring people to experience this. But it's like a hard sell. You know what I mean. For some reason, have you experienced that kind of obstacle between bringing the people in and like what are what are like some ideas? Do you think of bringing more folks in who are maybe would love this, but just don't have an experienced it?

Speaker 2: 25:53

Well, I think, lots of factors that build into that. I mean, unfortunately, one of the most damaging things is the culture that's been built up around orchestral music and really beyond. Orchestral music has maybe one of the worst offenders, but it's classical arts. In general, there is an elitism. That is is real, yeah, and I think it's changing, but it's still real in some. It's still real in a lot of circumstances with a lot of orgs and in a lot of circumstances with a lot of orgs. And what's difficult is, even when orgs are desperately trying to change that, it's still so ingrained. People's perception of it is still so ingrained. It's going to take a long time to break down some of those barriers. I mean, I will never forget I I was going to a theater show, yeah, and it was a contemporary play. It wasn't, like you know, an old English play from the 1700s.

Speaker 1: 27:09

It was.

Speaker 2: 27:10

I think it was Designing Women, yeah, and a friend bought tickets and it was a group of us, and and then I noticed one of them wasn't there and I and I texted them and I said, hey, where are you? And they said, oh, I left. I walked up to the building, I didn't feel comfortable, those places aren't for me, and so I left and I was like it's just a theater show, cause I'm so in this world, I like, I'm so, like it doesn't phase me, but to someone and this was, you know, this was a, this was a person who had disposable income, yeah, it was white, yeah, and so like there could even be more barriers, yeah, but but even like they, they still felt that the barriers were too high for them to enter and they felt uncomfortable. They felt like they weren't knowledgeable enough. Yeah, they felt like, as they said, it wasn't for them. Um right, whether true or not, you know, I'm sure the theater would be mortified, cause actually I know that theater does a lot to uh, to try to be inclusive and and the program was very accessible, but there's still that barrier of perception, and so it's like, how do we break that down when it's like people are so afraid to even come in the venue, um, so, so I think that there's so many answers to that question and there's so many barriers, but I think that's a big one, um, and I think it will take a lot of effort over a lot of years.

Speaker 2: 28:40

I think it's how we dress and you know the Cabrillo festival, it's way more casual. Santa Cruz. I think the open rehearsals model is wonderful and, for those who aren't familiar, essentially it's kind of rare. Not a lot of organizations do this. All of our rehearsals are open and people can come for free, and it's it's also like you're not stuck. You know you can. You can walk out if you need to go you know their homework?

Speaker 2: 29:08

Yeah, I mean it's, it's as long as you're quiet and respectful. It's, like you know, it's very casual and and also people getting to see the process and like, oh, these are real humans that are not perfect, that are working it out and collaborating in real time and are having a good time. I think that that helps, and so it's not that that is the silver bullet that's going to totally make this accessible, but it's things like that that we just have to break down these perceptions over time.

Speaker 1: 29:40

Yeah, I definitely feel that and part of me thinks that. You know, maybe I am totally off, you know, but part of me thinks that there is a sense of like, the sense of the exclusiveness of these spaces. I think the audience like enjoys being exclusive, like they feel that's part of the draw for a lot of the things. I remember going to the orchestra with my grandfather when I was younger and some people. I remember talking to people and still this is today where they don't really know anything about the music.

Speaker 1: 30:19

Right, they kind of go in and they're just like it's almost just like this activity you do when you're in this certain class bracket or something you know, and in this exclusive like you're not, you're not going to have to run into anybody who you may seem think is unseemly or on like something edgy at all. You know you're kind of in this safe for that person, for that safe kind of space of exclusivity, you know right and so for me, it's like when I think about making those spaces inclusive, I'm always like do they?

Speaker 1: 30:55

do people even really, really want that? You know, like it's, it feels more of like a it's like an identity thing rather than like, well, let's try to do a bunch of things, I think if we turned it into like more of an internal process, like do we actually do? We know what diversity looks like, do we know what these things feel like and are we actually open for that? Because that's a bigger question. You know what these things feel like and are we actually open for that? Because that's a bigger question. You know what I mean, right?

Speaker 2: 31:25

I mean, yeah, you've just touched on something really, really deep. How much time do we have today?

Speaker 1: 31:31

We've got all the time in the world, man.

Speaker 2: 31:34

I mean I have a lot of thoughts there and that's really profound. And yeah, I mean I see, not especially here. Um, there's, there is, but I have I have not seen this especially here, but in general there is that sense of even when there's like a effort for diversity and inclusion. Sometimes it can be to save our art form.

Speaker 1: 32:01

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:03

Right. So there is like a like yes, we want to invite new people, but we don't want to change this thing because it's for us, and so we really have to push against that. I think, because the value, the inherent value, is the community we build, the big we yeah, uh, that we build. And and the more introspective value, like you, like you said, um and yeah, and I think part of that, I think that probably exists everywhere. Just understanding structures, I think part of that is the American model.

Speaker 2: 32:38

Yeah. So by that I mean, for better or for worse, orchestras are funded by patrons. Everywhere, but especially in the US and in Europe, the state funds. It's different, country by country.

Speaker 2: 32:57

Kind of like subsidized a little bit, it's way more subsidized in general in Europe and so the donors don't necessarily have all the power. Here. It's a little bit more of a donor-run model, and so I think you have a history of orchestras that really are led by donors and there's amazing donors, we have amazing donors and that's the only reason we exist and they, they, they want to see us be as inclusive as possible. But if I'm talking about the model, yeah, and maybe why it's a little bit of a different focus in my way, my why maybe it feels a little more like for a certain demographic. I think that's that's the problem one gets when you have an entire art form, that's that's not supported by by the government and really any meaningful way.

Speaker 1: 33:52

Yeah, that makes complete sense.

Speaker 1: 33:55

And I because the patrons are. You know, I think that's that's the problem with like, when you have private money right going into these organizations, Because there is like this kind of relationship that forms in the sense of like. I think, when it's something's government run in a pro or a con, you know, whatever your politics are, it is are whatever Politics are, it is our, whatever it's, it's kind of an agreement that this is for like, like a public good, for like the community, and you know there's more incentives to for the community, right. Well, donors, it's feels like. You know, it's really about the art form and I love the career festival because I think something that comes out is diversity, diverse composers. You know, I've been seeing, like in the past few shows, just a diverse cast of composers, like of black composers, of coming from different backgrounds, and I think that's really exciting. I think that's like a first step, you know, and I think seeing that and then also community engagement, which would be like you know my job, but you know, like getting people to see what's going on and to see what actually is happening and then to have the space be welcoming.

Speaker 1: 35:20

I'm, I'm just challenged first, you know, I mean not challenged, I mean I enjoy challenges, right. So for me I'm I'm in a lot of spaces where I initially don't belong. My whole life I've always felt like, you know, I've been in spaces where I don't fit, and so how I responded to that was to be rebellious, right, and when I was younger I was like, well, I'm going to take off my shoes then, and you know, just like really kind of leaned into that, right, and then over time it was less dramatic and I just like decided just to own it. You know, but not everyone is like that. I've had a lot of friends who have invited to different things If it's at the Kumbwa even, or at, you know, cabrillo Festival or just the symphony, where they just do not feel like they are safe.

Speaker 1: 36:05

I mean, so to speak. I mean they just feel like they don't belong, Like they're going to. They're going to being stared at, they're being kind of nitpicked, they're being, you know, like there's this kind of sense of not belonging and that's that's an internal thing, for sure. But also it makes me reflect on the spaces that we create and I think it's really, really awesome that we're doing like, definitely this season, that there's just a lot of cool, creative acts happening, I think, with Yoon what's her name? Bora Yoon, bora Yoon. And Wynton Marsalis is doing a piece.

Speaker 2: 36:40

I mean, I mean he's composed a piece uh, you know, um, he won't be here, unfortunately, but yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:46

And uh, yeah, I think there's just a lot of cool things happening and so you know, um, but yeah, I do you have any last thoughts on on that part?

Speaker 2: 36:56

Yeah, I, mean I'll, I'll follow up and like say that that you know what I was mentioning really was trying to diagnose the problem and like why the culture exists, but that that sword cuts both ways. Yes, and I think, because of visionary donors and leadership, that, like we have done a lot to change the face of orchestral music and and so, um, yeah, so that that's thanks to all of our supporters right so again.

Speaker 2: 37:31

So it's not a critique of, in fact it's the opposite, right, because, like the sword cuts both ways, because we have that support that really is behind our ambitious vision to change orchestral music and to make it more inclusive, we can do what we do, yes, but you know, again, it's like I'm placing it in the system in which it exists and maybe why we're here. So, you know, kind of both of these things can be true. Yeah, you know, I believe in gray areas.

Speaker 1: 38:06

Right, that's where the truth is, you know.

Speaker 2: 38:09

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:10

And it's beautiful. And I think you know, like you said, things take time and it takes courage and there's a lot of elements involved and I think you know, personally speaking, I'm looking at the festival and I'm like man, I'm so inspired. You know, this year I'm like going through the volunteer thing. I'm like I'm going to volunteer for that, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1: 38:32

But yeah, just so if you're listening. Yeah, you should check it out. Either way, All right, we're going to move on to our second part here. Okay, All right. First question Do you have any quotes that you live by or think of often?

Speaker 2: 38:47

Um, basically everything Ellen pre Mac has told me.

Speaker 1: 38:51

That's the best answer. What is something you believe that other people think is crazy?

Speaker 2: 38:59

Um, let's get back to that one. Okay, what is something you believe that other people think is crazy? Let's get back to that one.

Speaker 1: 39:04

Okay, do you have a favorite failure to success story and like this is this is broad for a reason right, like you could think of it as a a failure in the past or not, it's just like what comes up in your mind when you hear that, or not.

Speaker 2: 39:20

It's just like what comes up in your mind when you hear that. So there was a while in college I was a percussion major. I hadn't hadn't focused exclusively on composition yet and I knew I wanted more creative control. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be a singer, songwriter and a.

Speaker 2: 39:39

I went through a uh, a program at Berkeley not Berkeley, california, berkeley, the one in Boston, um, and a voice teacher told me that I sounded like Woody Allen and at that moment I was like, okay, I don't think this is for me. Okay, I, I appreciated her honesty. Yeah, I was like this is for me. Okay, I appreciate, I appreciated her honesty. I was like what is she trying to say? She was like, oh, she's trying to say I have a weird throaty kind of nasally voice. I'm like, okay, I can, I appreciate, this is the feedback and this, this is not the path for me. Um, and so, like you know, know, I appreciate sometimes when people are honest with you, and so it wasn't a failure, like I, just I was still going to be an artist and I still continue to perform.

Speaker 2: 40:27

But I was like, okay, I don't, I don't think singing is for me. Um, I I wanted to focus on more instrumental composition, and so we kind of course corrected and yeah, it wasn't just that comment, but it was like that comment alongside, like you know, several other things like, okay, maybe the song right, like traditional songwriting with lyrics, isn't for me.

Speaker 1: 40:48

And here we are. So it worked out what new belief, behavior or habit has most improved your life.

Speaker 2: 40:57

It's a work in progress, but trying to give myself space, you know, then I mean that in a lot of different that can be interpreted a lot of different ways, like space to be human, space for error, um, space to not be perfect, also space, you know, I think I I don't in the you can have it all.

Speaker 2: 41:23

I think that is capitalist BS, because you can't. There's only 24 hours in a day, um. And so I think you have to recognize, like I don't care how brilliant you are, there's only 24 hours in a day, and you have to recognize okay, right now, like right now, I've kind of shut down my social life, and that's okay, cause it's the festival time, it's a busy time of year, so I'm giving my space to really focus on work, uh, but then I'll create some balance on the other side of this, and then you know, same for like it's, it's about push and pull and like and it's there's not always balance, it's more just creating space for things as you can, and then giving yourself grace, and that sounds like I'm so wise and balanced, and I only half succeeded that, but I strive to do that.

Speaker 1: 42:15

Oh man Love that. When you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do um?

Speaker 2: 42:22

I go to verve, sponsored by verve, um, yeah, no, I, I do, I, I part of that is like going on a walk, and so I am a caffeine addict, so sometimes that walk is to a coffee shop. But, like I, I, movement is key, and so I try to get up and walk and move my body and give, give myself breaks. Um, because I can work for a long time, if you know, if I give myself little breaks and you know like no nobody can like completely concentrate for just hours on end.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Yeah, if you had to gift one book to someone.

Speaker 2: 43:06

What would it be? Depends on the person.

Speaker 1: 43:08

I've heard that answer before. Just think of like, just think of a person in your head that maybe, like, needs help or something or needs some kind of support and you get.

Speaker 2: 43:23

You get to recommend a book to them, the Bible, that book, no, yeah. Well, right now I'm reading my sister recommended to me it's when women were dragons. Yeah, it's sort of a it's new for me. It's a little bit of a stretch for me, so I'm not through it. I maybe I'll let you know if I recommend it, yeah, but but yeah, it's a stretch for me cause it's sort of sci-fi, yeah, which is not normally my genre. Okay, I'd say for those wanting to learn more about post-classical music, downtown, say, for those wanting to learn more about post-classical music, uh, downtown music by kyle gone, um, it's a great sort of anthology on the history of post-classical music, as he coins it, which includes like minimalism and, um, um, yeah, a lot of creative work that was happening in like the 60s and 70s, and I think there's even some stuff in the eighties, yeah. And then I say one of my favorite books would be 1984.

Speaker 1: 44:29

Amen and appropriate. What did or who do you think of when you hear the word successful?

Speaker 2: 44:39

I think, I think of when you hear the word successful, I think um, I think of hans ota, um, so hans, like han solo, and then otte, and he was a composer and he ran a festival. So he uh, kind of a role model because, um, yeah, he was able to do both things. I love, love his piece book of sounds. It's a collection of, uh, piano solos, um, and it's it's.

Speaker 2: 45:10

I admire him as a composer and admire, like, the work he did and the festival he built as well, and like, okay, you can do both things. And and I can really hear in his work the assimilation of all the things that were happening in new music at that time, um, and I, and I can hear it really distilled into, distilled very austerely. It's not like it's some wild. You know myriad of like it's. It's some wild, you know myriad of like it's. It's very, very much distilled into something that's very austere. But I can hear these different influences all coming together that you wouldn't necessarily expect that only he does, yeah, um, so that's definitely yeah definitely a role model.

Speaker 1: 45:55

What advice would you give yourself 10 years ago? What?

Speaker 2: 45:59

advice would you give yourself 10 years ago? Just breathe, that's good advice. Yeah, I think just breathe and take it down a notch. I think I do have a tendency to be anxious and worry if it's all going to work out and to worry if I'm enough. And you know, constantly, um, that's kind of been a blessing and a curse, right Cause it's like a positive paranoia, like I'm. I'm worried things aren't going to work out. So I'm going to try really really hard and then it works out, because I tried really really hard. But but yeah, I would love for that to be motivated a little bit differently and have a little more faith. Yeah, still do the work, but have a little less angst about it.

Speaker 1: 46:47

Amen to that. What is something people often get wrong about you?

Speaker 2: 46:51

Hmm, hmm, it really depends. I think it depends on who we're talking about, because I have a lot of different aspects of what I do. I think you know, as an artist, not everybody understands like what an administrator is, and then it is frustrating sometimes when you're an administrator and people think that that's all you do, you know and that's like and it's a very and I'm very grateful for the role and the other roles that I've had in my life, but sometimes that's all people can see Totally, and I'd love to be like actually like I do love what I do and I do put a lot of myself into my roles, but there's more.

Speaker 1: 47:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:37

And then, similarly with friends or whatever, I and similarly with friends or whatever, I think they don't always understand me outside of whatever social context I'm in. And so you know, I think we all experience this in some way. It's like we all have lots of different roles and identities and I think I can be surprising that there's more depth, because I can be a little bit of a chameleon and then that's kind of a safe space for me. I will not in a people-pleaser way, but I will adapt and kind of not ruffle feathers unless I need to. But then sometimes people kind of think you're unassuming.

Speaker 1: 48:22

Yeah right, right, think you're unassuming. Yeah Right Right, you're adapting to the environment. Right yeah, what is the worst advice?

Speaker 2: 48:31

you have received. Oh boy, um, well, it would probably get kind of personal, uh, but but I am a gay man and I grew up in the South in a very conservative religious setting with that yeah. Yeah, about how you know queer people die too young, or you know, or you're not going to be allowed around children, or yeah, some really hurtful things that. I think that's some of those things. People have apologized later, but yeah, yeah, that's horrible.

Speaker 1: 49:18

If you put anything you wanted on a billboard, what would it say?

Speaker 2: 49:33

Give a crap. Sometimes I want people to like I don't care. Uh, what like I think, well, I do care, but I just want people to care, right? Yeah, I think what the world has a too much apathy like maybe you're, I don don't. I'm not. Don't pretend that everybody's going to be passionate about contemporary music. In fact, I'm counting on the fact that people are all everybody isn't about contemporary music, because there's so many other causes that I would love, like environmental justice is important to me and climate change, and I do little things, but I'm counting that there are other people more passionate than me to do that. Cause I'm really passionate about contemporary music. I'm going to do everything I can to make the world a better place in this way. Right, and I think we all. I think apathy is apathy and the lack of empathy is is a real blight on our society, and if we all can just lean into our strengths and what we care about and care about each other, then I know it's cheesy, but the world would be a better place, right.

Speaker 1: 50:27

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 50:29

And that's what I look for in friends and colleagues. I want someone who's passionate about something and trying to make a difference, whatever domain is meaningful to them, right.

Speaker 1: 50:39

All right. So that's kind of related to this next one. What does positive change in yourself and the world look like to you? Sleeping more, yes, yes, that's pretty deep actually.

Speaker 2: 50:53

Deep REM. Yeah, I mean I kind of throw back the creating space thing, um, cause sometimes I can take the caring too much to a level that is unhealthy, whether that be with whatever it is I'm working on. So I think that's that has to be balanced with so positive changes. You know playing the long game, you know, um.

Speaker 1: 51:19

I love that. All right, here are the two silly questions and this off, uh. The first question is uh, what is your astrology sign and do you resonate with it, and why?

Speaker 2: 51:31

Uh, I'm sorry y'all, I'm an Aries, I'm like an Aries. I don't really know anything about any of the other ones, I just know about mine. Um, I, I don't really believe in it, I'm pretty agnostic, atheist about a lot of things, um. But uh, at the same time, when I read the description, I'm a little bit like oh okay, maybe there's some I do kind of burn hot and burn like a very passionate and yeah, and kind of burn hot and burn out a little bit sometimes. So there's some, you know, and like stereotypically they're supposed to be good leaders and can rally people around a cause and I'm like I'd like to think that that's true.

Speaker 1: 52:11

Yeah, I love that. And do you hear about? I think I sent you that bar who? I thought it was funny? I sent it to you because you're an Aries and there's a bar that like banned aries oh right, right, yeah, oh like. I don't think the guy even knew anything about astrology at first. He just noticed that all the fights were happening from people whose birthday were like late march to april I'm I.

Speaker 2: 52:38

I've never other than I was in Taekwondo, but I've never been in a fight. But, when I'm really mad. I know how to create. You know, I'm also a Southerner, southerner diplomacy. And sort of I know how to be effective and make something happen, and they'll never know it was me.

Speaker 1: 53:05

You're just sitting back there drinking your sweet tea.

Speaker 2: 53:08

Martini in my case.

Speaker 1: 53:11

That's some villain stuff, but all right. Second question is if you had a power animal, like an animal that you would get inspiration from or like you you know, feel good about or connected with, what animal would that be?

Speaker 2: 53:27

I love foxes you know, they're beautiful quick. You know, stereotypically they're considered cunning. Yeah, in reality I'm probably more like a squirrel, but they're cute too.

Speaker 1: 53:40

Okay, so here's, here's your time to say anything you want to say, Like is there any kind of events happening? Is there any anything happening in your world that you want people to know? Wisdom, whatever you want, so just just let me know when you're done.

Speaker 2: 53:55

Well, you give me space and I'm going to do shameless plugs Great. So one for me is I'm in post-production on a new album with Sarah Cahill and Regina Myers a piece for two pianos and working on edits now and should be released sometime later this year. So just keep tabs on my website or Spotify, apple music and artist name. And then for Cabrillo festival obviously it's, it's and if we're loading in on Monday and it's, it officially runs July 29th through August 11th, so join us for that. That will be an incredible experience. Very packed lineup, there's something for everybody. And then I'd say, looking out even further, um, the, of course, we're already planning for cabrillo festival 2025, um, and we have it's also the 50th anniversary of lgbtq pride in santa cruz, so we're going to be doing some exciting commissions and community partnerships, et cetera, and so just want to get everybody jazzed for that. And if anybody wants to contribute, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 55:16

How do people contribute?

Speaker 2: 55:18

So cabriomusicorg is our website and then if you want to be a partner and making our 20, 2025 festival happen, then you can reach out to me directly and I can share plans with that and yeah, to to be to be announced. But, yeah, my and my my contact is on the website as well. Perfect, yeah, well, riley, this has, my contact is on the website as well.

Speaker 1: 55:42

Perfect, yeah, well, riley, this has been such a fun conversation. Thank you so much for coming in the studio and coming on speak for change. It's been like an honor to talk with you Well, thanks for putting up with me. It's my, it's my honor, all right, this has been speak for change podcast. I'm your host and thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day.