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Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
Welcome to Speak for Change with Thomas Sage Pedersen! Our mission is to inspire and promote positive and lasting change in our local & global communities.
Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
Ep. 143: Redefining Leadership: Empowerment, Empathy, and Career Growth with Julia Greenspan
Prepare to redefine your understanding of leadership with insights from Jules, my long-time colleague and co-founder of Ignite Nexus. In this episode of Speak for Change, we promise you'll learn how leadership is an evolving journey, filled with emotional highs and lows. Jules generously shares her experiences, from earning an MBA at UC Davis to the challenges of leading without a formal title, emphasizing the critical nature of trusting your instincts and genuinely empowering your team.
Navigating the intricacies of organizational dynamics, we delve into the concept of "trickle-down trauma" and how top-down pressures can create toxic work environments. Jules and I discuss the importance of fostering empathy and productive conflict within teams to maintain a healthy and cohesive work culture. Moreover, we explore personal strategies for career growth, balancing a strong work ethic with personal fulfillment, and using one's strengths to overcome professional obstacles.
We round out the episode by exploring Jules' remarkable career in orthopedics and her passion for coaching and mentoring. Highlighting the power of authentic relationships and trust-building, we draw parallels to the camaraderie depicted in the movie "300," underscoring the significance of vulnerability and support in leadership. From managing personal crises to negotiating job offers, Jules offers a wealth of practical advice, making this episode a must-listen for anyone aiming to become a more effective and empathetic leader.
Consulting, life & executive coaching for organizations & individuals. Start the journey today!
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All right, jules.
Speaker 2:Thomas.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Speak for.
Speaker 2:Change, thank you.
Speaker 1:It's an honor to have you on.
Speaker 2:It's an honor to be on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not like I see you all the time now.
Speaker 2:Since we're basically like cohabitating in an office together at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like when we started Ignite Nexus, I learned more about your financials and your life than I knew about my ex-wife's.
Speaker 2:When you walk into a Chase bank to go open up a business account together and you're like oh, we're doing this. Yes, it's intense.
Speaker 1:No regrets, no regrets, no regrets, none whatsoever. But I wanted to get you on because, working with you, I mean I I've, I've known you for like almost a decade now, if it's not more or less, but working with you, I've seen just your leadership style and how you view business, and even our works with nonprofits and all these things, and I just think you're just so remarkable. And so I just want to start off with you. Know, let's start off with some leadership stuff. You know, I think, as someone who has worked in a variety of different businesses and positions and who has a executive executive leadership certification and MBA and all this, the fun things on paper or whatever like what is your view of leadership? Like what is leadership, leadership?
Speaker 2:Like, what is leadership? Oh man, just, you know, starting with the easy question, Cool, no, leadership is evolution. Leadership is never staying static. I think that what I discovered kind of within my sort of like little sphere in my career is that I was never quite satisfied with my leadership. It's, you know, it's.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of people out there who feel that way. You know, you think, like, why are you doing it this way? Why are you treating people this way? Why is this decision made? Why was it not communicated in a way where I felt heard or, you know, attended to? And I think, throughout my sort of junior career, it always seemed like I was sort of lacking in my own leadership of you know, I look up and what am I learning? You know, with some pockets, you know, some pockets of sun, right, it wasn't all the time. I was, you know, definitely mentored by some incredible people, but they weren't usually my direct management.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people feel that, Like, there is, you know, I kind of talk about the emotional burden of sort, of the managers that aren't really managers, you know, the people who haven't been given the opportunity to be in positional leadership and yet they're doing all the work of it. And I'm sure there's people listening right now who are like yeah, that's me. And I felt that way a lot. And so I think that when I started becoming more mid-level not truly management yet but I thought maybe I'm just not seeing it. You know, I think a lot of people feel that way before they get promoted, Like maybe I'm just not understanding, I'm wrong, Like there's something, there's something wrong with me, Like why am I always frustrated? It must be a me problem.
Speaker 2:Uh, and so that's kind of when I went um off on a journey to get my MBA because I thought, well, you know, maybe I just don't know, I better go get some education and maybe I'm wrong. And then I went to UC Davis and I got you know, it's an incredible program they have there, by the way, like shameless plug, You're welcome, Deena Nava but like really incredible program they have there really wonderful people, really striving for sort of progressive leadership and collaborative principles. And I realized like, oh fuck, I was right the whole time. Every time I thought something was silly, it was. And every time I thought something was demotivating, it was. And I think that's when I started to find my leadership voice a little bit more was like just go with your gut, you know, like you know what's right. You know what's right for an organization, you know what's right for people, and sometimes that's just opening up a conversation and being willing to learn, and I think that's where the evolution comes in is there is no end point right.
Speaker 2:You're not done Like you don't, become a leader and then stop growing. Um, power is in empowering those below you, right? If you can do that and if you know how to do that in a way that feels generous and is genuine, then I think the sky's the limit. Um, you never really stop.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, whereas I think I always looked up and was like oh, they made it. How do I get there to like some director or president position where, like, do you just wake up and feel like you?
Speaker 1:did it Like, yeah, I'm done.
Speaker 2:I did it Like I'm a leader now. I wear my leader PJs, I drink my coffee out of my leader mug.
Speaker 1:I have a leader robe yeah, my leader slippers yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Best, like world's best boss mug, like it's all there, it doesn, it doesn't happen, I think I. But I think that's also maybe the sign of a healthy leader, where you wake up every day thinking how can I do better, how can I do more? What do I need to learn? What am what did I fail at yesterday? Like, what can I learn from that? Um, what can I do for my team that I didn't do yesterday that I can do today? Um, but I think that's also why people burn out, because the good ones are always asking those questions. So it's kind of this hilarious little like rat's nest. It's like what is leadership? I think it's empowering others and being tired a lot, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Of course you know, when I think of leadership, I think of that quote. I think it's a Bible thing too, I think it's oh, I forgot, it's like a servant to many or something, something like that, where you're here to serve others and I think people forget who are in positional leadership. That I don't know. My view of positional leadership when I was going through it has been like oh, they made it and they have like this autonomy, like this freedom vibe, like they must be like some better place.
Speaker 1:But once becoming a you know, a boss or you positional leader myself, I realized, oh man, no, like now the work is just beginning, like it's like, oh man, this person needs this, this person needs that, and sure, you could just be like, well, you just do it, you know. But then you realize how much you impact the culture of your organization, right, yeah, just by your actions. And I think I've learned that the hard way and the easy way you know, in different forms and different situations. So you know, let's say there is someone who's in a positional leadership, let's say you had the ear of someone who is in positional leadership, right, and they are not doing that great, right? Maybe they can't even admit it really, but they're, like you know, looking down on their employees more than not. They're not really respecting people's autonomy or boundaries. You know kind of you know the, the kind of micromanage, the stereotype of the archetype of the micromanager kind of vibe. How, what advice would you give them as their uh, you know advisor or someone who's there to give them advice?
Speaker 2:Oh man, uh, another really super easy question, man, I should have studied, for this, uh no um.
Speaker 1:I think it's.
Speaker 2:I think it's difficult because some of those leaders are not coachable and we've all met them right. We've met the ones who maybe you try to manage up and they're just not open. That is difficult and usually I can suss them out relatively quickly or like diagnose that that is a really tough situation to manage because the fact is it's never their fault, right, they can rationalize every single negative outcome as someone else's problem. If they're coachable, I think there's a lot of things you can do. I mean the first thing is to realize that the tone comes from the top, like if you don't like something that you're seeing in your team, there's something they're reflecting something back, it's a mirror.
Speaker 2:So you have to kind of look at that and say, all right, like incentivize the behavior that you want, what am I not incentivizing? Like what am I not doing? And making sure that you know you're also setting a tone of respect. You know, if it's, it's really hard, especially when you go from like I come from a very hard charging medical sales background where it's just 24, seven pager, like running and gunning all the time, like I mean you're just constantly out there Right To go into management is a really hard sort of like transition for people who come from that background, because you have to be so aware of like. When are you sending the text message? When are you sending the email? Is this respectful to someone else's time?
Speaker 2:because, as a leader, they look to you and say, well, maybe I need to be working at two in the morning you know, yeah, maybe I need to be working on a saturday and it gets really toxic and unhealthy right and so, like you really need to do a lot of psychological deep dive into your work style when you become a manager and make sure that it's hygienic, almost that it is safe for the organization. And I had to do that. But I was very intentional about it. I knew that I came from sort of orthopedic trauma that was nonstop. So as soon as I started managing people I was like nope, that has to like any instinct that I might have. There is a send it later, function y'all.
Speaker 2:Like you know you can do the thing when you're thinking about it, if you're kind of an in the moment manager, but do not send it. Like, schedule it later. Like technology is your friend. I also think that, like, it can be really hard to accept what you might not be doing well, but you need to ask for help. So some leaders who were like you know, my team isn't doing what you know what I want them to do, they're not following my direction. It's like okay, do you have an executive coach? Do you talk to someone about this? That isn't your team, because there are some things and that might be like a mentor on your peer group, like if you have a director's meeting or if you have a regional manager's meeting or something that you're a part of. Like you need to find someone that you can talk to about these issues, because it is not healthy to just sit on them or not talk about them. It is not healthy to just sit on them or not talk about them. Um, I like having a coach or you know sort of having that as part of an okay, you know sort of thing to utilize Cause sometimes people can think like ew, it's a shrink, like I don't need that.
Speaker 2:It's like everybody could benefit from a neutral eye outside the organization to say, like, what questions aren't you asking? What are you assuming, right, um? And it's really, really, really important because if you're managing people, you're not just, like you know, signing their paychecks or dealing with their time off, you're like holding their career for the time that they're with you, and it's an honor. And if you don't feel that way, get out of management is my big ask, um. And to the non-coachable ones, that's sometimes how they feel is like people are a resource, people are a metric, and I think, if that is truly sort of your instinct, maybe reassess that, um, because at the end of the day, like it's going to affect your culture, which is going to affect your performance. So even if you're, you know, a cold, metric person, like that's going to come back around and whip you, you know.
Speaker 1:Do you think it's possible for a leader to become coachable without a sense of humility? Because, you know, I think there's a lot of leaders I'm like you know, I'm being optimistic in the sense of you know, maybe these leaders, some leaders out there who are listening to this, can hopefully learn from this. Right, but my experience, a lot of people who are not humble or they're not even curious, Coachable is like it's like a big ask, almost, you know. It's like they don't even it doesn't register. They're almost righteous in their, their behavior, you know. And so what? What are your thoughts around that? Do you think it's possible or is it? Is it just kind of finding the right people?
Speaker 2:yeah, I. I mean it's a good question. I think like nothing happens in a vacuum and I don't think that there's any. You know, it's rare to find a truly toxic leader that in a vacuum, would act like a non sort of humble kind of user Right. Usually there's pressure from the top. That isn't healthy, driving that sort of behavior, attitude. So I'm definitely curious about an organizational structure, I'm curious about organizational culture above that leader to say okay, well, is it? Is it not okay for this person to ask questions on to their greater executive team If they're having a problem, like is the only question they're ever asked, what is your number?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, um, that's not healthy either for that person. It's really hard to be humble and open and lovely if the people above you aren't that way. So it's usually a systemic issue. I don't find it common that it's just one person. It happens for sure. The problem is it's trickle-down. It's trickle-down trauma.
Speaker 1:Trickle-down trauma yeah.
Speaker 2:And sometimes it's the person at the top not wanting to have anything to do with conflict. You know it's exhausting to be a CEO. It's hard to deal with the board if you're an executive director, right. All these positions are challenging in their own right and require a lot of communication and sometimes you're stretched right and it can be hard to remember that the people below you are human because they're, so they're executives. You know you pay them a lot and they have a lot of expertise and they've usually reached a point in their career where they're relatively confident and it can be hard to remember that. Like, their life is hard too and they need nurturing. So if they're not getting nurtured it's harder to nurture those below. So it's kind of a top-down issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you mentioned conflict and I know you have some views around conflict, Because I love conflict. And so I'm wondering if you could talk more about leadership and the uses of conflict and the perspective that people should have, or leaders should have, around conflict yeah, uh, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I think you say conflict in some rooms and they like people squish you know, like why is she talking about conflict?
Speaker 2:um, they have like a negative connotation yeah whereas I have like a super positive connotation with conflict, because conflict is not argument, argument is not productive, but conflict is productive. Conflict is just hey, I don't see eye to eye with you on that, and we're going to talk about it. If you have really big problems in your business or if you have big problems on your team, like hey, do we mention the fact that, like I don't know, I'm going to pick on a name, ryan is brutal.
Speaker 1:He never comes in on time and everyone's whispering.
Speaker 2:Well, you could just go have like a 20 minute conversation as a team about Ryan with him there and say, hey, what's going on, how can we help you? You know, bring up the conflict and oftentimes that's the kinder, gentler way to go. It might be harder for that 20 minutes, but would you rather just be miserable and resentful for the next year? Jeez, you know rough and that's not good for team dynamics. But sometimes it's up to the manager or the leader in the that specific org to say this is how we handle things here. Yeah, as we safely and respectfully talk about our problems. It's like a marriage, you know, like, I think.
Speaker 2:Didn't you witness Nick and I having some adorable argument one time and you were like is this how you guys fight and we're like well, yeah, we're respectful and nice, but we don't agree and we're going to work through it. Yeah, and it was small, but you were like whoa. To me, that's a perfect example of conflict. It's like you know. Are you open to some feedback right now? I had sort of an issue with the way that we tackled that one thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's interesting. It's almost like you want to do it from. You know you're saying this, but not directly. You want to do as fast as you can, right, like I think, instead of not as fast as you can I don't know if that's the right words but in a way that doesn't breed resentment right over time. Would you agree with that, or?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, there's a, there's a time and a place, right Like I mean, if you're hot, like don't have the conversation right, like you know tickety breath, but you know, the more that you let it sit and settle and I'm sure people you know listening to this have seen this happen before but, like certain team members, might run off and have a sidebar yeah, let's go get a cup of coffee, and then they wind up having a conversation about it, and then all these little sort of offshoots, form and politics sort of starts, you know, bubbling up a little bit and that's not good for the health of the team. So, having a space for everyone to like, hey, you know what, let's just, let's just suss it out. Like you don't agree with the strategy, let's talk about that. Why don't you agree, you know, and really let people actually have a voice? That's a tough thing as a leader.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like the team might not agree with you, the team might not agree with you, and I'm sorry, but if my entire team is telling me I'm wrong, I'm probably wrong. I might need to look at that again. And that's a really tough thing if you don't see your role as kind of protector or representative. It's almost like a political situation where you represent your team to the people above you, if you're in a traditional hierarchy, your team to the people above you if you're in a traditional hierarchy, and so if you don't have their back and if you don't really represent them, well, communication is going to start falling apart, because maybe they tell you the strategy sucks, we hate it, and they know the customer better than anybody. Right, they're on the ground, they're in the field, and then I never communicate that up. They're going to be like why did that never change, you know? And it starts to become very frustrating for people.
Speaker 2:So it really is on like, say in my org, like me as a leader, to go to the people above me and say here's what I'm hearing. How do we feel about that, you know? And and bring it up Like it is our job to bubble that up. Um, some people are scared of that, you know. But it doesn't have to be scary, you just do it. It's like anything right, it's never as scary as you think it's going to be, just get it done.
Speaker 1:I love that and I know, you know, one thing that comes up within leader I know, myself included is discomfort. You know, like when you're for conflict, for instance, like as much as I hear you saying that conflict is a good thing, I do fear sometimes like oh no, what if I say the wrong thing, what if I do the wrong thing, what if you know? So there is this like kind of fear and discomfort feeling when approaching that. What would you, you know, advise leaders to do with that feeling if they're feeling that kind of discomfort? Because I think the natural response is to kind of run away from that and then nothing gets, like conflict is avoided. So I guess I'm asking, like for conflict-avoidant people, like what is something that some advice you can give them, for them to help redefine conflict within themselves?
Speaker 2:wow, uh, I mean, conflict is opportunity, right, if, if you are um sort of at the beginning of your career and you're not in a position of leadership, conflict is where you learn. Conflict is where you manage up and conflict is where you start learning those skills to be able to speak truth to power, to kind of say, hey, I don't know if I really agree with this. You know, and you're going to learn something. It's okay If you maybe you don't understand the full ramifications of a decision, but then someone's probably going to explain it to you. Yeah, if you ask why.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Um so, yes, it's uncomfortable, but you're going to get smarter in that goal, like when you say I don't know. You get smarter. It's amazing every single time. And if you're a leader, I think conflict becomes a duty. It's your duty to engage in conflict healthy conflict, obviously, but really you're protecting the people below you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You might be protecting them from not understanding something like a again strategy or decision that's being made from the top. We'll protect them from harm. Tell them why you know communication is key and yes, it sucks and it's scary. I mean, you know people have to communicate things like budget cuts and furloughs and firings and really scary things, but I feel like people respect being communicated to directly and warmly, like keep it direct and warm and guess what? You're going to screw it up.
Speaker 1:You're going to screw it up. I screwed up all the time.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean I stopped doing it. It just means that I might preface it with am I getting this right? Like, just just so you know I might mess this up Like steer me on the right path If you think I'm going down the wrong road on this. But this is how I feel. You know, or sometimes it's you know, using the wrong verbiage. Like you know, everyone is, I think, a little bit more on eggshells in the last 10 years in management of like what's okay to say.
Speaker 2:You know, um, all of a sudden, words are very loaded Um, and I usually ask for grace and just Kate, correct me please If I get that wrong or I'm so sorry I forgot your pronouns. Wrong, like, please correct me if I'm not doing that correctly. Like um it it takes almost like giving people permission when you're in positional power to remind them. Like you can correct me please. I want to respect you. I actually think that the young generation is really good at that. I think that's kind of a cool thing. Back when I was kind of growing up in business, I think people were more nervous about I mean, maybe someone calls you by the wrong name and they're afraid to say like, actually my name is Jeremy and someone's been calling you John for the last 15 years. I think I'm proud of the way that our sort of environment has changed, but there's still people adjusting to that.
Speaker 1:Well, I love that, yeah, Well, I love that and so kind of the go on. Like a little transition here you have, when I, when I think of you, you have, you have really built yourself up through your career. You know, almost linearly or non linearly, i't, I don't know. That's what I'm here to ask Rollercoaster?
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, you know but you've, you've gone from the trenches to an executive position and you know you've even even started a consulting company and you've done all these things and are in our society standards are doing successful six figures, have a family. You know you're doing amazing right. And so I'm wondering for people who want to like strengthen their careers. You know people who are kind of like oh, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to act, I don't know. Like kind of you know, is there any of advice, like steps or processes or way of thinking that you go into when you're just working? You know that have, have that you've seen, bring you success in your career. Ooh.
Speaker 2:Um, wow. Well, first of all, I need to just talk to you all the time, apparently, because now I feel great.
Speaker 1:You do talk to me all the time, apparently, because now I feel great, you do talk to me all the time.
Speaker 2:I need to hear that, like you just wake up and call you every morning like Thomas, tell me I'm doing okay. Um, yeah, I, I think that you know it's really just not backing down, you know, uh, life is really hard and everyone is working their tails off. I think, for the most part, right, everyone's working, everyone is looking forward, everyone is how do I get there? How do I do the thing? Um, and it's exhausting, it's mentally exhausting, um, we have a lot of sort of obsession with perfection and obsession with things. Um, and it's gotten worse ever since. I mean, like when I was in high school, there was no internet, you know, or like there was like barely you know, and now there's like Insta, with people showing you their amazing lifestyles, and I think it does, um, it does hurt a little bit when you're struggling to see things like that.
Speaker 2:Uh, and I think for me I put that away Like I don't look at the other lane, I don't look, I don't care what other people are doing, um, and it takes a lot of introspection of, like, what are you good at? What do you enjoy, you know? And instead of constantly thinking how can I fill a gap, sort of, how can I leverage what I already have, um, because you kind of need the wins as you're building right, like you can't just be in a constant void of I need to do 18 things in order to get X. It's sort of like what can I be doing now to make me feel good and make me feel successful in small ways as you start building skills, building a knowledge base, building a brand if that's what you're trying to work toward, building a brand, if that's what you're trying to work toward, um.
Speaker 2:I think that probably, like, one of the key things I got was a work ethic, um. You know, like I said, everybody works hard. I definitely think that I had kind of an obsessive work quality when I was younger, um, but that was out of need, like I didn't have any money, I was starving, bro, um, but also cause I felt like I was learning things, like I was going toward like OK, maybe if I stay working in the operating room an extra three hours tonight, you know, not only will I make a little bit more money, but maybe I'll learn something, you know and kind of taking that like feel the pain now to get the win later, the win later.
Speaker 2:That's really important when you're building a career. Obviously you know everyone, you know, especially now, a lot of talk about work-life balance. That's fine, but there's a trade-off, right, yeah, and I think understanding your sort of threshold for that, you know it's okay to go a little slower, but you might have slightly slower progress.
Speaker 1:That's okay, just know that and don't feel bad about it. Yeah, so you're saying kind of work-life balance is is there is a trade-off in our society, usually meaning like you may not make as much progress as you want.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I mean in, in, in my, which I don't. I'm not advocating for that at all.
Speaker 1:I'm just asking you yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:I'm definitely not advocating for that. I mean I want, you know, trust me, I look at Europe and I'm like, oh man, I want a vacation, like that, you know, and I want everyone to enjoy sort of the life that we have over here. Yeah, but like, if, if let's get specific cause, people might be like what the heck is she talking about? So when I was starting in orthopedic trauma, you know, one of the only ways to really truly learn and solidify your craft is to be in cases. So if someone is going to break their pelvis at two in the morning, like, and they want to put an X-Fix on, I'm going in because I need to learn and so sometimes my work-life balance takes a back seat, or took a back seat, but that was worth it to me.
Speaker 2:That was the trade-off, was. I know that it's really important to get good at my craft, because if there's one thing I really prize, it's my autonomy, it's my like feeling sort of like a mastery over a skill, like I personally am very motivated by that, not even the money as much, but like, can I be a subject matter expert? And so the faster I learned and the faster I got in there and, you know, the more cases that I saw, the better I got and I felt that progress and that was addictive, loved it and I think, if you can find something like that, if there's a space where you're like, oh man, I got another rep under my belt, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like I learned something today. Um then, you're in the right place and like, follow that drive you know.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned learning a lot and curiosity. I'm just assuming they're kind of interrelated. Um, but what? How did you discover that you had a passion for the for you know orthopedic trauma or you know whatever it was you know? Like, how did you know that, that this was it? Did you experiment? Did you just get lucky and fall into it? Like what was what was kind of the process for you to discover what you're passionate about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I I definitely think luck was part of a component. Yeah, Luck, and maybe being in the right place, yeah. So when I was 15, I started working in the operating room as part of kind of a school program and then they hired me on because I was in there. I was in the trenches, uh, washing instruments and again, staying late, observing, talking to everyone. I could studying surgeries. If I knew that like there were specific surgeries on for the next day, I would study them. You know, go in. So, like you know, it's kind of interesting. You know, junior, senior year, a lot of people are just, you know, going to math class and.
Speaker 2:I'd be like going to math class and secretly actually like, okay, so what's up with? Like carpal tunnel syndrome, you know, like I might be able to see one tomorrow, um, but that was really. It showed me kind of my drive and interest in medicine in general. And then, you know, I stayed at that hospital all through college. I wound up growing up there. That OR staff was my family and my support, because home life wasn't as supportive. That was definitely tough, like my parents were divorcing at that time and so I needed that structure. And I think throughout that I started noticing what surgeries I was more sort of driven toward.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, and my dad's a mechanic. He's actually local, he's an Aptos. He's incredible, uh, he builds coach, built roadsters and race cars. He's like the coolest guy on the planet. Um, shout out to Chris Heil of Aptos, uh, but he is an absolutely thrilling guy to watch, Like his brain, the way that it deals with mechanics, the way that he deals with the physics of a car, like all of that I was lucky to kind of grow up around.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So then you go to orthopedics and it's like, oh, this is just cool. All right, this is literally mechanics and carpentry and physics all rolled into one working on a body, like how awesome is that there's still lag screws, there's still struts, there's still like you know, um, and so it really it. It it felt very home to me, yeah. And so when I, you know, started diving into medical device, uh, specifically, it just made sense Like I would read the operative technique guides and it's like, oh, yeah, cool, it felt very natural for me. Other people look at it and, you know, maybe there's some people out there who hate orthopedics and they're like ortho's scary.
Speaker 2:It's like, well, yeah, because there's a lot of moving parts, it's very complicated, but it for me, felt very was. It was almost like I had my dad with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:And and I could go home and talk about it. He'd be like yeah, that makes sense, you know, and it was cool. It was like oh man, like, and he was a firefighter too. Yeah, so he had the medical and mechanical than I had a slightly different mechanical and medical, but we could still bond over that. Yeah, so that's how I started in Northo.
Speaker 1:Man. So as you grow, as you've been growing in your career, what have you ever like kind of passions shift, you know, because I feel like we all are growing and transforming beings. Right, you know, and some people are, you know, we'll stick with the same thing their whole lives. But has anything come up in your life where suddenly you have a passion for something else and now you followed that passion? Or have you kind of kept it solid and have ignored any kind of leanings toward other roads? You know, leanings toward other roads.
Speaker 2:Um, I think that, especially as you season in your career, you start to notice like that itch, like the, the, the, you know something, something's happening here, Um, for me, I think it was, uh, talking to a lot of women in orthopedics, because there's not a lot of us, yeah, um, especially when it's reps. It's very few women in our, our, our North, though, and I would start to notice, or even young men sometimes, but a lot of associates would call me from like all over the country and want advice from another woman or somebody who's been around for a long time, and I started to notice I'm, I'm, I'm pretty good at that, and I love mentorship, and I love, I love that kind of, um, really human, genuine exchange of like hey, I'm struggling, I need help, and then you're able to actually provide, like seasoned advice to someone.
Speaker 2:Um, what I noticed, though, was, you know, a, yes, it's exhausting, but B like, I'm not trained as a coach, you know like these people are calling you in times of crisis, almost and I might be naturally sort of good at it, and you know they don't have to explain their daily life to me because I already knew it, and that's part of the real difficulty of a trauma rep is, you know, you don't want to spend the first 20 minutes of your session explaining to someone what you do. It's exhausting. Uh, every time having to say, like you don't understand, I have a pager. I actually can't make her a call today, you know, whatever.
Speaker 2:Um, so having someone that has like a peer experience is really comforting to them, but I I was like I like this enough to where I think I need to learn more, and so that is why I started diving into coaching and I think that it really helped me, in a way, almost survive that, because as a coach, you don't inject your own stuff into the conversation, whereas when you're sort of you know, mentoring somebody, you might inject more of your own stuff into the conversation, and so I was able to gain that skill and kind of let the conversation just be about them a little bit more, but in a more formally trained way, and I think that is a perfect example of me sort of saying you know, maybe I'll go this way a little bit and you know, maybe I owe it to all these people calling me for advice to actually train on it, because I do think that it's, at the end of the day, it's mostly just active listening.
Speaker 2:But when do you really have somebody get on a call with you and be quiet and let you talk?
Speaker 1:you know it's hard yeah.
Speaker 2:Everybody wants to inject their own stuff. Sometimes you don't want that, you know. You just want someone to be like I got your back and challenge you a little bit, you know, and the right types of challenge questions that aren't going to feel invasive but do push you to reconsider or whatever.
Speaker 1:And I think I found a real. It was fun for me, yeah, With that, with that information. What have you done, Like with wanting to coach, realizing you have kind of some passion for that? Uh, have you like? What steps are you taking into fulfilling that goal or dream?
Speaker 2:Man, I think I think it's never done right. You know, you're, I think naturally I have a niche. There's, like people who really want to talk to me, who are, again, mostly a lot of people are medical device reps. A lot of people are trying to break into device like because I've been in that that realm for 25 years.
Speaker 2:Um, what I think I'm learning through, sort of like working with you, um, and people in the community, is that all these skills are transferable, like I just happen to know a lot of people in medical device you know, um, but at the end of the day it's like oh right, communication is broken in a lot of places and at the end of the day it's usually the same type of diagnosis, a lot of the work dynamics that even medical device thinkers special aren't. That's kind of the coolest thing of what I'm learning is just how similar everything really is. Like, yes, there's different factors, but at the end of the day it's kind of the coolest thing of what I'm learning is just how similar everything really is.
Speaker 2:Like yes, there's different factors, but at the end of the day it's kind of similar, um, and I actually find a power in that because I think I've lived at the extremes for so long that it's not that the problems seem like easy that's not the case but they seem surmountable, like, oh, we can handle that, you know, um, and I think I've been pleasantly surprised by that Um, especially because, you know, maybe I haven't realized quite how extreme medical devices until I got out into the community and saw like oh, my gosh, these people are amazing, they're progressive and they care about each other, and like, wow, you know, it's like, this is awesome, like I want to talk to you guys you know from, you know cause we've worked together, right, you know we've been doing some cool projects and we're awesome, um, but I've been, I've been really excited and stoked to see how much your knowledge base from your just experience has helped so many people in our community already, like your experiences in medical.
Speaker 1:That I think in your mind was purely like oh, this is in this world, these other realms, working with nonprofits, with local businesses, and seeing you apply these stories and these almost philosophies or principles that you've learned from this other world and having it be super relevant and almost expansive for the community, and so I think that's probably a real interesting thing I've been seeing and I'm wondering what have you been seeing? Is there any kind of principles or philosophies that you are starting to see through our work, that is, from the other worlds that you've kind of associated with medical device or the medical world over here?
Speaker 2:with medical device or the medical world over here. I mean, I think I've just been really impressed. You know, the level of humanity and care at like a lot of levels of organizations here has been, quite frankly, astounding. I'm really proud of Santa Cruz County. I'm really proud, you know, because everyone that we've met with who's who's wanted to have some type of workshop or maybe they're trying to reorganize their structure or whatever it might be. The reasons that they're doing it are very, very like altruistic Um.
Speaker 2:I think that has been a really big thread through Um and so it makes it really easy to apply intentional management principles and it makes it really easy to apply intentional management principles and it makes it really easy to apply collaborative leadership, because they're already there, they just need some of the structure, or maybe they just need someone to be a neutral party, to open up a conversation or to facilitate, you know, maybe a little bit of that conflict that they've been afraid of having, because it is difficult inside of an organization to do that, um, in a sort of neutral way. Sometimes it helps, you know, it helps to have somebody there guide you through the process. Uh, and it's interesting because, while you can do that at my level in medical device, it is a little bit harder, um, because I think there's really high stakes, people feel very personal, there's a little more ego.
Speaker 2:Um, because I think there's really high stakes, People feel very personal, there's a little more ego. Um, you know, we've got a board, you know, and and yes, there are boards here. But I think that the boards in medical device can sometimes be kind of directive and a little bit hardcore.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, and it puts more pressure on upper leadership versus. I think what I see, especially in nonprofits here is just again. It's this crazy thread through of altruism. People pick their boards carefully.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:People are wanting to keep an eye on equity and DEI and like I mean, I just don't see that a lot in my other spaces, and so it's a huge breath of fresh air because I feel like you can apply collaborative leadership in a much more meaningful way. When people are open, shocker, weird, it's almost like it sticks. So it's fun. The conversations are fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know, from what you're describing, I definitely see it as almost like you've come from this world where it's just more intense, like everything's more intense, and then you're coming to like doing our local work here, and it's like you've had this. You have this intense thing, you're ready to go and it's like they're all, like we're all we're, we're good, like we're we want to just really make this work, we want to apply this, we want to like and you're just like man. I can actually use a lot of the things that I would wish I could use with over here more in these situations, you know, because these people are becoming more open. Is that sound right?
Speaker 2:I mean, it just seems kind of yeah, I mean, I think in a way, um, in some of the teams that I've worked on a medical device, you know it's uh, it's really high stakes because people are also stressed and tired. There's a lot of that. Um, back to that work-life balance, fantasy, Right, Um. But you know, if you're, if your grandmother's on the table, cause she broke her hip, you want one of us to respond right away.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there is a very, very specific team dynamic to keep that healthy. That is important, which is where I cut a lot of my teeth, and management and leading people is like keeping someone motivated and positive when they're getting woken up in the middle of the night. A lot is a task, man, but you get really good at it, and I think it means that when I walk into spaces that have kind of a nine to five or you know, supportive atmosphere, I'm like oh yeah, cool, OK you know, I think I've had to sort of work in the extremes and it means that I think it's sort of a more moldable clay because they're willing, um and and they want the same things.
Speaker 2:At the end of the day, sometimes in device, they don't want the same things. You know there's different pressures on people, much more traditional, corporate, much more hierarchical, and it's not that it can't be done. I actually really enjoy the tough problems. Like you know me, I'm a psycho. I like. I like it when there's a tough management problem. It's really fun for me, but it's also, honestly, like this is going to sound super Pollyanna. It gives me hope. When I see nonprofits like the ones we have in Santa Cruz, um, treating their employees the way they do and feeling the way they do about their community and the missions that they have, it's like oh, thank God. You know. It gives me sort of a renewed sense of my own leadership, in a way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know no man. I think that is beautiful. You literally are coming from life or death. I love when you give the example of if your grandma broke your hip, you want us there yeah, immediately, you know I think people don't really think about that.
Speaker 1:Right, you know the career path. The environment actually does make it have a key role in the culture. Right? And if you're working with people who, definitely in medical, where you know literally someone's life can be on the line, and do you really want that person who has the keys or the, the, you know the, the tools to fix you, to have a work-life balance you know what I mean do you want them to? Do you want them to be like oh sorry, I don't work after 6. Right now it's about 6.30. I'm off.
Speaker 2:I'm right in the middle of my leg day. I don't work.
Speaker 1:Fridays I'm doing a four-day work week. I don't work Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Well, it's also so sorry.
Speaker 2:It's also, I think, why I have such an intense again working at the extremes it's why I got so into sort of intimate leadership right, and that emotional intimacy of a team. And when I talk about that it's not like you know, we tell each other all our problems but we do have a sense of safety of like I know that I can tell this person what's really happening with me. So when I grew up in trauma it trained me very early on to just be real with my teammates and sometimes that's jarring, you know, to people who aren't used to it. So I'll give you an example. If I'm you know I'm going to keep names out of this I was on a trauma team and you know when you are on a team like that, it is 24 seven.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And that means that your life stuff that pops up might pop up in a big way on a night that you're on call and we do not take very kindly as a trauma culture If someone's like I just can't take my call tonight. I'm not going to tell you why it's like hey, you know why am I taking your pager duty on my off? You? Know, there's a very sort of like you better tell me what's up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then I've got your back. If you're honest with me and you're transparent, I am a hundred percent here for you. Yeah, and I had a pop up. I said what happened and he's like my wife's having a miscarriage. I said I got your back. He's like so I'll take the day off. I said you a couple of days, go take care of your wife, go take care of yourself. You know, and we didn't ask him. You know, we didn't ask him when he was coming back. We didn't ask him anything. It was we got.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is a level of intimacy that is, like, required to keep a trauma team healthy, and it's it. It's fosters this crazy sense of trust, yeah, where, like, if you know that you can share something that horrible with your teammates and there's nothing but love being reflected back, then you're in a really good place. And the fact that he was able to share that with me was like I was honored, you know, and he didn't know it, for he was like, do I say this? And he's like, oh, no, no, no, she's, she's got me.
Speaker 1:That's extremely vulnerable. You know this intimacy you're describing and I like I like this term like intimacy leadership, right, you know this kind of sense of and it's it's it's kind of like vulnerable leadership, but to be intimate you have to be vulnerable, you know, and so it's like the intimacy leadership, like being able to build those close bonds with people and build, and it's all based on trust, right, like that seems to be what this is like and cause, like he could have just lied, he could have like try to figure out something that's more societal, appropriate for him to not be there. You know, like a lot of people do, I think a lot of people don't trust because you know we're in a society where you can weaponize that against somebody. You know, and I think you know I've talked to people who are always worried about that I can't be real or straight up with my leadership, my positional leadership, right, because, like, they can use that and weaponize it against me in community organizing, where people have either weaponized vulnerability that I've shown to me or they've done it to somebody else.
Speaker 1:I know who I really care about, you know, and you know, luckily I've moved through that, but it's hard to be that open and vulnerable in our current make of society, you know, and so I'm wondering if you can speak on that a little bit of maybe how people can. How can we change this culture? You know, I know it's a big question, it's just mainly your opinion, just mainly your opinion. But like, how can we start changing the culture to be able to be more vulnerable and trusting with our fellow community members?
Speaker 2:Oh man, if that's a problem we can solve, we can quit, you know that's like everything's good.
Speaker 1:Well, we'll have the answers.
Speaker 2:I mean it's. It's really hard, because I think there's a narrative of hide yourself. As a junior person, you come into an organization. Don't be real.
Speaker 2:Hide your tattoos for instance, right Like I'm covered and I you know it's like, oh, hide yourself, or maybe it's don't you know, and everybody likes to preach about being your authentic self. That's really hard to do when you're junior in an organization and you don't know if the people above you are going to treat that with respect and what that means. Are they judging you silently or whatever? So can you imagine someone who lives in that world? Then they become a manager. Now they're expecting. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:The culture that we've now fostered is one of hiding and one of being very cautious and one of kind of protection of ourselves. I think it takes a completely rebellious leader to just say tell me what you got and make them feel safe and prove that you're not going to do anything with that, and that changes an entire culture. It really does, you know. I've seen it. I've had people who I kind of lovingly think are sort of rehabbing from bad management. Not that I'm perfect, but I am an intimate manager. I do trust you know that people will be kind with my information and I'm kind with their information. But it's an exchange. I will tell them what's going on with me, I will tell them if I'm having a bad day like and you know what. They might leak it out. I don't care.
Speaker 2:The point is that it's radical. It is. It is okay to not be okay and I know we've heard that, but now we need to bring that into business. We need to bring that into our teams when it comes to any kind of customer facing stuff. Obviously that changes. You know we have a job to do, but internally, how you keep people on the beam and how you start to change that culture is you do it anyway? Yeah, you know people might find out that, like your dad is sick. Okay, well, what happens if they find out? You know, like, trust your team to find out what happens there. You might get support where you didn't know you were going to get it right. Who knows? Like, maybe you find out somebody actually had something horrible happen to their father recently too, and they want to find a peer to talk to.
Speaker 2:And now you've got another buddy yeah um, and so it is hard if you have a manager, again back to sort of that um, you're holding people's careers in your hands. Yeah, you need to love people if you're going to manage people. Yeah, if you're not a people person don't manage. Like full stop, like just don't do it, because they can tell.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's when they start hiding. Or if you're very like you know, politically driven, you know, and I mean internal politics, not like national politics, right I, politically driven, you know, and I mean internal politics, not like national politics, right, like.
Speaker 1:I'm not talking about that?
Speaker 2:Um, I think it it is. It is easy for people to sniff out if you're doing things for your own gain. Um, you can't do it for that either. So, uh, how to fix it? You can't. It's just one tiny incremental step at a time. It's one good manager at a time. It's one brave junior employee at a time who says, all right, maybe I'll experiment with this. Hey, I'm feeling like crap today because I had a massive fight with my girlfriend. Oh shit, that sucks how you doing, are you okay? You know, I have some time at the end of the day. If you want to chat, you know. And just if it could be like that instead of like no, I need those 30 minutes of my time because I need to be productive. Like, yeah, but look at the relationship you're fostering with that person. Like that is retention. Yeah, that is that is building a trust that you can't measure, um, and I think that does have business implications toward a positive product. You know, productive sort of culture, um it's just different.
Speaker 2:It's just built differently.
Speaker 1:I love that. I have a couple of thoughts on that and a question, but I always think it sounds so cheesy. I can't wait, do not judge me Full.
Speaker 2:Gouda.
Speaker 1:My people, uh-oh. No, you know, like 300, the movie. You know it's like a small group of guys who, like, you know Sparta. You know like 300, the, the, the movie.
Speaker 1:you know it's like it's like small group of guys who, like you know Sparta, you know the deal fights, the crazy army, the whole thing I like started, I started popping up in my brain recently because of working. I think it's because we're working with a lot of smaller organizations and I'm realizing how important like community really is because, like, if you look at, like, the whole culture of Sparta and all the things, there's a lot of weird shit, but, like, there was also a deep sense of like, brotherhood, of like trust, of intimacy within these armies and even in their tribe, their community with their wives and you know everything. There's this really deep sense of like I have your back and you can trust me to have your back Right. And I think the power of like, what 300 is all about, like, if you look at the philosophy behind it, which I just look at everything deeply, as we all know, you know I was just like man.
Speaker 1:See, when you have a smaller team, how you have power is by strengthening trust and intimacy. You know, because then you're, you're, you're literally unstoppable and even if you are, you would put up one hell of a fight. You know, because then you're literally unstoppable and even if you are, you would put up one hell of a fight. You know, and I think, when we're going to, when we're thinking even of national politics or of all these bigger things. It just makes me think that we need more. We need some basic human elements. You know, with definitely around intimacy, vulnerability, trust.
Speaker 1:And you know capitalism is capitalism. You know it's a system, it's dry, it's boring, even it's just. You know about free markets and politics, you know what I mean. But when you see the side effects on that behaviorally, you start to see people wanting to stomp on people to get ahead, starting to, you know, think of the individual over the group, because they can see they can manipulate, they can influence these kind of things. So I, you know, I think this is really important. Basically what I'm saying and I'm wondering and this is like a like another woo question for you but if you can boil down, like intimacy, leadership, into some principles, what would those principles be?
Speaker 2:Keeping what is said in the vault if it wants to be. You know they have to understand that when they're coming to you with something sacred cause, it is sacred, it's part of their personal life and they're allowing you in uh that you treat it with respect and sometimes that means not sharing it with anybody. Most of the times it means not sharing it with someone. Other times it's you know, they share it with you and then they say I need help communicating this out. Maybe someone has an illness and it's time to share it with the team because it's going to affect a lot of things down the line. I've been in that situation before and it becomes now. You're an ally. Now you help them formulate a plan. Okay, I got your back. How do you want to do this? Here's what I suggest. How does that feel to you? And you coach them up on how to have hard conversations about something that might affect the workplace. Um, because you have to talk about it at some point right.
Speaker 2:Sometimes things are, you know, think about like maternal leave. You know how terrifying is it to find out you're pregnant and then be like crap, I gotta figure out what am I going to do? Um, you know, I did that in trauma and it was like a nightmare, uh, you know, and I didn't really have a safe place to put that and didn't really know what to do about that, um. And so, you know, having having an intimate leader who can help you through that and guide you through that as an ally, and not like telling you what to do and not, well, let me point you to the HR policy. Okay, that's fine, but shit, how do I have the conversation?
Speaker 2:This is really hard, um, because many times those things are sensitive and they're kind of one-time things that might be big life events that are scary, or you know, um, I'm just going through a really hard personal time, um, and I don't know how to communicate that because I don't really know how long it's going to be. Like, maybe someone has a mental illness or they're going through a severe depression, like you can't put a timeline on that stuff, um, and I think that treating it with no judgment is massive, like I definitely have heard it all. I promise you, um, and I think that being an intimate leader is being ready to hear it all. Like, without any kind of flavor of judgment, bias, concern for organization in the moment. Like in the moment it needs to be about the person.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, if I have someone coming to me and they say like, let's just say something really crazy like to deal with as an organization, maybe it's like hey, I think I'm thinking of going to another job. Ok, cool, Let me see the offer, let's look at it together. You know, I people come to me with that. It's like hey, I think I'm thinking of going to another job. Okay, cool, Let me see the offer, let's look at it together. You know, I have people come to me with that. It's awesome, because they know I've got their back. Like in that moment I'm taking off my manager hat and putting on my buddy hat and saying cool, let's take a look. Oh, I think you could get more. You know you could get more. Come on, go negotiate, Go negotiate, let's see what happens, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think the goal of an intimate leader is that no matter what company somebody works for, they're going to take your phone call.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, really, let's boil it down, that's it. I want people to take my phone call Like I don't care how long it's been, I don't care what company it is Pretty proud to say. I think that for the most part, like anybody that I've ever worked with is like oh yeah, it's Jules, you know, because it's never just about the company, it's about the relationships. And then, crazy enough, guess what? They tend to stay more because they like how they feel around that leader. You can always tell those people too. I mean, look in your own organization, if you're listening to this Like there's someone that this reminds you of right, like, trust me, that person is tired, bring them a coffee and tell them they're nice.
Speaker 2:But I think that they're often overlooked too by executive leadership. These tend to be the givers. I'm in love with Adam Grant. He's this incredible organizational psychologist and he has this amazing little book and a talk on givers and takers. And these people are often givers. They're often the people that are going to be like maybe slightly less productive, but they're keeping your whole org alive and you have no idea, because all of their work is hidden. All of it is quiet office conversations of keeping people on the beam, yeah, you know, and there's a lot of power in that. I think one of the biggest mistakes of an organization is to not recognize those people. Yeah, and then they leave and they feel this crazy vacuum of culture and they wonder what happened and it's like, yeah, you didn't recognize the person who was really holding it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I love that. Okay, and so here's the second question. Then we're going to move to our our question round. You clearly have built this crazy work ethic throughout your career. It's it's kind of what got have gotten you. You got a little bit of luck, but I know you and I see you working you know what I mean Like you're probably one of the hardest workers I know. Okay, so if you can boil down your work ethic into a couple principles, what would they be?
Speaker 2:um, know thyself. Um, uh, I. I know that I tend to be a very like uh, I don't know how to even put it. You probably know me better than I do. Honestly, honestly, at this point, this is hilarious. I've never had to explain this in front of someone who watches me work Random. So I'm like am I going to get this right? It's the test, it's my self-assurance test.
Speaker 1:I'll check you.
Speaker 2:I feel like I'm I'm really good at doing a lot of things at the same time, but I have to stay organized. So you know that I have a very, very unhealthy attraction to whiteboards. It's probably not normal. Like I love whiteboards, I love having something visual that I can look at. I love checking off tasks. I like trying to stay organized because I'm not naturally that way. I'm a very chaotic person. Like I'm a chaotic thinker. I'm a chaotic sort of like a worker as far as my tasks. But that's why I did great in trauma man, because I could do a thousand things at once and get them all done.
Speaker 2:In a corporate world. That's different because obviously you need to be more communicative. I've had to learn a lot of skills over the last 25 years of not being chaotic with other people. Like I can be chaotic in my office with a whiteboard and stomp around with loud music, but when it comes to organizational communication, everything has to be much more streamlined and much more clear, and I think that you know that has been something that I've intentionally worked on.
Speaker 2:I also like to do things that are relationship-based in the moment. So if there's like a client waiting on me for something, it like hurts me physically, because I want that person to feel like I am. I am holding them close and I am watching them and I am caring about what they're waiting for. Sometimes you know life gets in the way and you know people are waiting for a review or something. I think about that and I think that's what gets me for work. Ethic is like there is an internal voice saying they're waiting for you. Um, I don't know if everybody has that, and I think that's a huge thing. That drives me is like I want the relationship to feel warm, um, and that often drives me to do things outside of work hours or call it unhealthy, call it whatever, but it feels satisfying for me to get that done. I think he watched me yesterday, right Like we had done a whole reorganization conversation with a company and six to seven hours yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we did six to seven hours of intense emotional work and the first thing I did was come back to the office and fire off emails and start finishing up the notes for it. And you know, but that's because it was fresh in my mind and I was, I was motivated, I was passionate, you know. Uh, and I think that that drives a lot of it. Um, I think that's a good thing, though. You know, it doesn't feel like work, it feels like completion in a way you know I get to, I get to put a little cap on the project.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've noticed you use it, cause your whiteboards are. They're always organized, which is great they are. Because I think and I relate to this as someone who is like a fellow chaos person I think we, we, we gravitate towards systems like to-do list systems and different like mind map systems or different things, because we know our mind is kind of crazy and we know that we need to kind of separate certain things to actually get them done. And I see you utilizing a lot of these cool systems and uh to to get things done and I just appreciate, appreciate it, I appreciate the work, and so I just wanted to acknowledge man, you do have an amazing work ethic. Thank you, and I can't wait to listen back to this and see if I can get it solid, it's all damage, it's all damage, it's all this is just damage.
Speaker 2:I think the hardest part about sort of like rehabbing from orthopedic trauma which I've been doing for a couple of years now and honestly it's really hard to break out is that if you think about sort of behavior reward systems in trauma you're rewarded for the faster you can respond to a case, the faster that you can get a scrub tech set up appropriately, the faster you can have an answer for somebody. So like reaction with rapid and complete sort of like correct answers is like super rewarded.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a entrepreneur training. Yes A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:It's like who can be here first, who can give me the best implant?
Speaker 1:Who can give me?
Speaker 2:the right answer and who can give me the right answer and who can treat me like a human boom. You have my business like it is. It is so. It is so reactive, um, that I think it just becomes a natural steady state of living. And so then when you try to bring it into a normal work situation, it's kind of like oh, that's super damaged, but it's been rewarded over time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know so that sense of urgency is very real.
Speaker 1:I love that. All right, so do you.
Speaker 2:This is our question round now Do you have any quotes that you live by or think of. Often, if everything's important, then nothing's important is really in my head these days. Without clear communication, you know, sometimes people in organizations are just given like 8,000 tasks with no deadline and so you feel like, well, I can't get all that done. You have to prioritize things, otherwise it all feels like a big jumble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. What is something you believe that other people think is crazy?
Speaker 2:Ooh, what is something I believe that other people think is crazy? Well, probably intimate management. Um, I mean, we talked a lot about it, but I am into radical candor, you know. Like, I mean, I'm not going to say it's as extreme as you ever watched. Lie to me.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh my God, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Radical candor. It's like how are you? And he's like well, I'm late because I was sitting in bed thinking of Nancy Grace. It's like very like way too honest. Um, maybe not to that level, but like I do think that it is dangerous and rebellious to think of intimate management because there's people in a junior level who are kind of like that's nice for you, like you're already in management. Um well, I report to people and it's still pretty dangerous.
Speaker 2:Um, if anything, I think it gets even more important the higher up you go, because now you're talking back to a CEO or a president or a board and it's a little nuts. I've definitely watched my sort of like co-directors sometimes around me going like well, she's definitely ballsy, but it's good.
Speaker 2:I think it forces conversation and it's almost like I don't care if I lose my job. You kind of have to be in that realm and you'll find leaders like that in organizations or even people at any level in an organization who are willing to take that on.
Speaker 2:But I think it's rare Do you have a favorite failure to success story? Oh, man, a favorite failure to success story? Oh, for me personally, man, I feel like I fail every day. I said everyone ever, probably, I don't know. I think that you know I left a company, uh that I was working with for a long time and leadership changed. I wasn't happy, uh, and I wound up leaving. I was like I'm out.
Speaker 2:And then I got invited to to do a talk and like, honestly, it was kind of a fill in spot, right, like somebody that I knew had to pull out at the last minute. He's like I know that you could probably speak on this. I was like, yeah, sure, whatever. And I was feeling pretty low in my career at that point. That was like I just had to leave a company that I really cared about because of a massive change in leadership and I felt very sad, like I missed my team, I missed everything I was doing, and I thought, whatever, I'll just take this talk. And that's where I met my, you know, ceo, um, of a startup that I'm working with and you know, talk about a low point to a high point. It was like I gave the talk. He was super into it. Um, we wound up talking for like a couple hours.
Speaker 2:We put the chairs up on the tables and you know, it just became one of those things where it's like, oh see, you got this, like you are good at this. But it was really fun because I could have literally just said, no, no, I'm not doing that right now, or no, I'm not going to talk about that because I just left that position and so it's not really relevant anymore. I was like, no, of course I can talk about that, let's go. And it was really impactful. And four months later, after my non-compete was over, he came and got me because of that talk and I called in sick. That day I like flew to Minneapolis, called in sick and gave that talk and it was really important that I did that.
Speaker 1:What new belief, behavior or habit has most improved your life?
Speaker 2:Coming to the office with you. I mean, you laugh, but kind of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I enjoy learning from you. I think it's important to have people around you that you work with that invigorate you in some way. You in some way, and I think that um, stretching myself and wanting to be around nonprofit work and wanting to be in the community more, um, and communicate in a healthy sort of like intimate management way, Uh, I've been able to do that with you in this office and I think it it has been very, very good for me, Um, and not my normal like day to day Uh, but I think it's really it's it's been very positive for me, Not just because you're sitting in front of me.
Speaker 1:When you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do?
Speaker 2:Oh man. Um, sometimes I just sit and stare at the wall and procrastinate. That's real. I think there's people who can resonate with that. Um, sometimes I just sit and stare at the wall and procrastinate. That's real. I think there's people who can resonate with that. Um, you know, I make a list. I like to organize my thoughts.
Speaker 2:Like, sometimes I tend to over like I'm overly harsh on myself when I'm behind. I'm not truly behind, I'm just I think I'm on it's like a self-imposed deadline. Like, is it a self-imposed deadline or a real deadline? Like, like, what is this? So I have to, kind of I always question myself when I get into that zone. Sometimes I hike, but not enough. You know I like to do that. But sometimes it's nice to clear my head, but it doesn't really actually make the anxiety go away, cause then I'm like but sometimes it's nice to clear my head, but it doesn't really actually make the anxiety go away, cause then I'm like well, that was another two hours that I could have. You know, it's like super sick. Um, you know, I'm working on it guys.
Speaker 1:Uh, but you know, at the end of the day I think um prioritization and really, really questioning where the anxiety is coming from is important for for me, and then usually it's just doing the thing get it done, get it off the list and you'll be fine. I feel immediately better.
Speaker 2:If you had one gift or one book to give somebody, what would it be? Man, yeah, probably give and take by Adam Grant.
Speaker 1:For sure, there's, there's, no there's no downside to reading Adam Grant. Ever. He's the best. Who do you?
Speaker 2:think of when you hear the word successful? Oh man, honestly, not one person. Everyone I know. I think waking up is a success these days. Seriously, I don't mean that in a flippant way. I think having the balls to get up and do it again is something to be commended, because it is not easy right now, especially like where we are as a country, where we are in sort of like society. It has gotten harder for people every single day to get up and do the thing and to feel good about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what advice would you give yourself 10 years ago?
Speaker 2:What year is it? 2024? 2014. What was 2014? 2014. Oh man, 2014,. I had my son. I had my first son, miles. I guess my advice would be you know, you're doing fine. It's not even advice, it's just like, hey, it feels like a lot right now, but you're doing fine. Newborn in trauma. I went back to work five weeks after I had him um on his due date Cause he was early. It was a mess, um, and I think I just felt really like stretched, you know, felt really tired and um, yeah, just you're doing okay.
Speaker 1:What is something people often get wrong about you?
Speaker 2:I've been called intimidating and I don't get it Like you know this about me. I'm always confused by that and maybe I don't understand it fully. But yeah, I've been called and said I'm intimidating, where's me out. I don't feel like I'm intimidating. I'm a nice lady, I promise.
Speaker 1:What is the worst advice you have received?
Speaker 2:uh well, especially in the same vein as intimate management, um, I was told at a very young age as a professional that I wear my heart on my sleeve and that is a terrible thing. And it was from an older male manager, act surprised, um, where he said he said you're just too honest, you know. You just say what you're thinking and that's really that's going to hurt you. And I kind of looked at him and was like I mean, only cause you find it hurtful, like I'm just telling you what. I think you asked me a question and it was very confusing for me. I think I was probably 17 or 18. And and I certainly wasn't by any means being overly aggressive about anything. He asked me a question, I gave him an answer. I was like, ok, like straight shooter, let's go. And I found that advice very confusing. And I still find it confusing.
Speaker 1:If you put anything you wanted on a billboard, what would it say? Question everything.
Speaker 2:What does positive change in yourself and the world look like to you? I think when we can be honest with each other and not feel like it has some massive like cost, you know when we can actually have conversations that are productive, that don't feel like relationships are going to end and the world's going to fall apart. You know, especially right now obviously there's a lot going on in politics and it feels very heavy. It feels like oh my God, can we talk about it? I mean, you see what, if you meet someone in the line, you know at the store, it's like, and you see a magazine cover and it's crazy. It's like I don't even know if I can comment on that. Who are they? What side are they on? Like? The feeling, that sense of heaviness, of like can we even talk about it? Yeah, is really scary to me. I don't like that.
Speaker 1:All right, so here are the two silly questions.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, All right, they're silly.
Speaker 1:Ask what is your astrology sign and do you resonate with it?
Speaker 2:Oh see, I don't know as much about astrology as you do. So I'm a Scorpio. I think I resonate with some parts of it. I probably need to like learn more, but I do feel kind of intense sometimes. I think I do have kind of a high energy, high intensity personality, so I guess that fits. But I've also heard Scorpio's described as like mysterious and I feel 0% mysterious or intimidating.
Speaker 1:Damn you.
Speaker 2:Damn you, Damn you. Yeah, I don't feel mysterious man. I feel like if somebody asked me like any question, I'd probably just tell him what's up. Like I, so I think that kind of always feels a little bit like. It feels like I'm supposed to be some like dark, silty mistress in the back, Like you know, having a drink with my the brim of my hat turned down or something, and I'm like I'm a total nerd running around the grocery store picking out fruit.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know Like I feel, I feel dorky. Um then, you know, compared to like, what a traditional Scorpio sounds like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, all right.
Speaker 2:And this one's you have. If you had a power animal or an animal that would, inspire you.
Speaker 1:What would it be Maybe?
Speaker 2:like a meerkat. A meerkat, I mean, they're adorable, they're little sentinels, the ones that just pop up, yes, and they guard the house and they look around and they're protecting everyone.
Speaker 1:Why don't I just think of Nick?
Speaker 2:Because Nick's adorable and he's kind of a meerkat. Yeah, I don't know. I think they're hilarious, anxious, social little creatures, which kind of resonates with me. For some reason they're like little perfectionists and they want to make sure everyone is cool and watched out for. But they're brave, they're by themselves and look out for everybody. They have little societies. Meerkats are awesome. They have these crazy little meerkat societies. I think they're the cutest. I love that.
Speaker 1:All right. So here's your part to say where can people find you? How can people contact you? What's going on Like? Do you have anything that you want to just shout out? This is your time. Ew, you can even put like some words of wisdom if you want, but this is your time. Just give me a thumbs up or I'm done.
Speaker 2:And uh, yeah, like a white flag, like I'm done. Um, yeah, I think you know they can find me, obviously at nexusco, which is with you. So anything you know, if you, if you run into Thomas, you're running into me too. Just say, hey, where do I find that? Jules kid? Uh, and I'll be close behind, probably. Um, I am also Jules at ignite nexusco. Um, that's my email address. But really, uh, I'm here for whatever people want.
Speaker 2:I think, um, where I really thrive is especially like mock interviewing or coaching or, um, even making a resume for people. Like I really enjoy watching people transition into different careers or go into a new career prep for interviews. That I find that super fun. I really like coaching around. That that's kind of my happy spot for individual people and then for organizations like you heard me chat like Todd about like intimate management and difficult management problems. Like I really like going into an org and helping them diagnose if there's something that is not quite going the way they want it to go. Plus, I get to do it with you. So I feel like that's extremely fun for me. And then just come to our quarterly mixers. I think that it's such an easy peasy, free, like donation only way to meet your community.
Speaker 2:I really enjoy those because I get to see people kind of pat themselves on the back for the hard work that they did that quarter and I feel like that's becoming a core part of our culture as a company that we give that space. So I would say, come to our quarterly mixers and say hi, just say hi. That makes me happy.
Speaker 1:Jules, it was an honor to have you on Speak for Change. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:This has been Speak for Change podcast. I'm your host, Thomas H Patterson. Thank you so much for listening and have a wonderful day.