Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
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Speak For Change With Thomas Sage Pedersen
139 Ignite Nexus Series: Rebecca Hernandez|Exploring the Power of Community Archiving and more!
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About Rebecca Hernandez
Rebecca Hernandez, PhD (she/her), is the new Community Archivist at the UCSC University Library where she partners with local stakeholders to promote the acquisition, preservation, and use of archival materials that document the communities of Santa Cruz County. She has worked in higher education administration for over 15 years. Rebecca served as Director of the UCSC American Indian Resource Center from 2014-2021, where together with the team, she created successful collaborative programs across campus including the People of Color Sustainability Collective and the UCSC Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls Series. She holds an MFA in Design from CSU Fullerton, is a graduate of the UCLA American Indian Studies MA Program and earned her PhD in American Studies at the University of New Mexico. Rebecca is a member of the Rise Together this year. Rise Together is an intercultural coalition of 32 members, led by People of Color and working collaboratively to advance racial equity in Santa Cruz County.
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Empowering Communities Through Archival Work
Speaker 1Welcome back to Speak for Change podcast . I'm your host , tom Asage-Peterson . Our mission is to inspire and create positive and lasting change in our local and global communities . We broadcast from the Tannery Arts Center in Santa Cruz , california . I hope you enjoy the episode of Speak for Change podcast . Have a beautiful and impactful day .
Speaker 1Welcome to the Ignite Nexus series , the series dedicated to shedding light on the intricate connections that foster personal and professional growth . Our journey delves deep into leadership , development and beyond all , with the aim of inspiring both today's and tomorrow's leaders . Join us as we unveil the secrets to success and the ties that bind them . Hi everyone , tom Asage-Peterson here . I'm excited to introduce you to Ignite Nexus , a coaching and consulting firm that I co-founded alongside my good friend and past guest , julia Greenspan , to help you unlock your potential . At Ignite Nexus , we believe in empowering individuals , executives , corporations , small businesses , nonprofits and organizations of all kinds to reach their highest potential . Our mission is to reveal and strengthen the unseen connections that can catapult you to new levels of success . We offer a diverse range of tailored services one-on-one or team , executive and life coaching , targeted professional development , notably in medical device sales and the arts . Dedicated consulting for community engagement and small business , empowerment , diversity , equity , inclusion , trainings and so much more . We're here to facilitate your transformative growth with our array of practical tools and strategies . Whether it's from mock interviews , resume enhancements , community workshops or personalized coaching , we provide the critical support necessary for your journey of personal and professional growth . Situated in Santa Cruz , california , the reach of Ignite Nexus extends well beyond . Ready to serve you no matter where you're located . Take the first steps towards realizing your aspirations . Reach out to us at ignitenexusco that isco , notcom , and mention speak for change to receive 50% discount on your first coaching session . Ignite your path to success with us today . Thank you so much for your time .
Speaker 1Rebecca Hernandez is the community archivist at the UCSC University Library , where she partners with local stakeholders to promote the acquisition , preservation and use of archival material that document the communities of Santa Cruz County . She has worked in higher education administration for over 15 years , including serving as a director of the UCSC American Indian Resource Center from 2014 to 2021 , where , together with her team , she creates successful collaborative programs across the campus , including the people of color sustainability collective and the UCSC Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls series . She holds an MFA in design from CSU Fullerton , is a graduate of the UCLA American Indian Studies MA program and earned her PhD in American Studies at the University of New Mexico . I met Rebecca in the Rise Together cohort , which is an intercultural coalition of BIPOC leaders working collaboratively to advance racial equity in Santa Cruz County . I hope you enjoy this episode , rebecca . Welcome to Speak for Change Podcast To honor how have you on ?
Speaker 2Hello , it's an honor to be here , thank you .
Speaker 1So we know each other briefly from the Rise Together group at the Community Foundation .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1And I think you literally were the first person I met when I came to the first meeting , which was which actually felt really special . You are just an amazing personality to like . You felt really warm and welcoming . I was super nervous , I didn't know what was going on . You know , when I first got there and you're just like hey , sit next to me and I was like Okay , you know , like okay , I'll do that . I appreciate that . I really do . Someone who's kind of more introverted myself , it's . You know , it's nice when people are just like inviting , you know , so thank you for that . Just , you are your energy there . But you know , I want to talk about your work and kind of what you do in the community and like kind of what , how that intertwines with the Rise Together deal , right , and how you perceive that because you're a community archivist at UCSE , correct ? Yeah , and so what is that ? How did you get into that ? And just , you can just let us know , like what is what's up with that ?
Speaker 2Well , okay , that's , that's that's doable . But before I answer , I do want to share that . I think the reason that I was so excited to see you at Rise Together is because you're a familiar name out there in the community and I thought , Wow , look who I get to meet today .
Speaker 2So it was my brave move to say hey hi and you know , because the work you do is really important and I just want to say thank you for it . So , moving to the work that I do at the university , the first thing I want to share is that prior so I just started the position in January , and prior to taking on the on the post , I served as the director of the American Indian Resource Center at UCSE for seven years and that work was , you know , very , very special to me , not just because of who I am ethnically and culturally , but because of my own journey and higher ed and having a whole like a whole lot of stuff go on in my life while I was moving through school and being able to support native students for me was as much a gift as it was a lot of hard work .
Speaker 2Just to raise awareness about what it means to be a native person in college , the kinds of things that are very common stats around us . You know , most of us are first gen . Most of us are , you know , dealing with complex situations at home . There's a lot of reasons why students come in and don't stay . So it was really important to me that I was out talking with faculty and administrators and people about look , you know , we're less than 1% of the student body here , so there's a real , real feelings of loneliness and isolation , and the center provided a place where students could come together and be together in community . So it was just , it was a great job . I loved it .
Speaker 2Like I said , I had been in the position for seven years and I this opportunity came up and it , you know , I thought , wow , this is a really cool gig . I mean I can be out there , and you know so at first , when I read it , it was . You know , this person will be out in the community helping folks to appreciate the value of their histories that are oftentimes completely missing from , you know , archival spaces , but also , in some cases , people went out into their communities , extracted information , brought it back to the archive and it's not really a representation of who they are , but rather it's a representation of what that person wanted them to be . So it was an amazing . You know , I just thought , wow , this is , this is great .
Speaker 2But I'm not trained as a librarian , so I don't have a degree in library science and I'm I don't have , I'm not certified as an archivist .
Speaker 2So that was a pretty big you know like well , but because I have an amazing boss today Samora , the way she wrote it , you know people were encouraged to apply even if they didn't hold those , and I have other degrees that have given me some , you know , understanding of what archives and museums and other spaces like that , their history , which is oftentimes very complicated and not very friendly to it's very friendly to some communities and not so much others .
Speaker 2So so when I was working so I have several degrees and one is in American Indian studies- and another in American studies , and while I was working on those I became familiar with the , the practice of going or I should say just going to archives and utilizing them , and from that perspective , you know , it's very , it's a very formal kind of you know , I've got to go in there and I've got to ask for them to pull things off the shelf and then I get to look at it and there was a lot that , you know , I learned from those experiences , but of course , as I was because I'm also an artist- and .
Speaker 2I worked to . A lot of my writing is about the complexities around native art and specifically how native art is described and defined and how that affects the identity constructs , the way people understand themselves because of these labels . So that was , that was my , that was what my dissertation was all about .
Speaker 2And the really problematic ways in which non native people decide how things are going to be described , especially not so much Well , I think it's across the board , both in museums and in and in other spaces .
Speaker 2But all that to say that that became so . I wasn't a stranger to how archives are both a gift and they can also be really . They can cause some , you know , I think , really big misunderstandings about people , and especially when that information was collected by folks from outside the community , that itself right that it's representing . So I came on board at at the library in January and I was thrilled to be their choice and came with a lot of familiarity , obviously after having lived here for seven years , of both the community on and off campus . So I worked hard while I was at the resource center to develop relationships with faculty and staff and off campus , you know , certainly just in my for my own interests , I'm involved in a lot of organizations . So that really helped , I think , to you know , to make to help help me move forward in the work with a little more ease and I didn't feel as intimidated as I may have if I had , let's say , applied for a job in Boston and gotten it and then that's shown up and like what do I do ?
Speaker 2you know who are these people ? So it , it was a , it was something that I'm really I really appreciate and even though , Thomas , I'm so familiar with UCSC , I mean , you know , I think seven years is a good stretch .
Speaker 2The library was still pretty mysterious , you know what I mean , and what goes on at the library and who works at the . You know , and so it was , it's this whole little universe there on the campus , as most of the campus can feel like that . It's it , can , it can be . You know , I don't know , it can , I'm thinking of the word , but you know you can , it's just anyway . So in the library when I got there , you know all of my colleagues are wonderful , they're archivists and librarians and I work in special collections and archives .
Speaker 2So , it's a very specific area of the library and we have a reading room and it's you know , it's amazing collection . But I was really , you know , it was so different because I went from being in community with three other ethnic resource centers lots of students , lots of noise , lots of interruption you know , like , oh hey , you know , and just , and , and , and and a lot going on .
Speaker 2Like from the minute you step in the door you're just , you know , kind of engaging the whole entire day to a really quiet space where , where the culture is very different . And so it took me a good like three months . I would chat with friends and say you know , I love the work that I'm doing and I'm learning so much , but I have to get used to that . You know that quiet because , it's just the nature of the beast , right , so so not being around students as much too that was .
Speaker 2That was a big shift and I don't think I realized how much I was going to miss it until I was away from it and and because I thought , oh , I'm on the campus , I'm going to see them . You know , it's no big deal , I was telling myself , or I'll see students all the time in the library . And it's true , I do .
Community Archivist Representing Diversity
Speaker 2But there's just something different about having a space that is meant for community to come together and be together .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2And a space where it's still a community , but it's , and you know , you're encouraged to be there . But you're there to do other kinds of tasks , like study and research and read and you know you can still be in company with others , but it's just a different kind of community . So I'm still learning about that . But I really got a quick jumpstart and moved right into working again with Teresa to start to think about OK , we have this new community archive .
Speaker 2I'm the first person to hold the position of community archivist and that's a really big deal , because I'm probably one of I don't know like no exaggeration In California I'm definitely one of very few that has a full-time gig dedicated specifically to the community archive . In other spaces , librarians take on that task , or archivists take on that task , in addition to other things that they're doing .
Speaker 1Oh , I see .
Speaker 2So this is just a full-time like my job .
Speaker 1And it's pretty awesome . Are you going through past histories ? Is that what archiving is ? Is that what is it ? So ? What is the specific role of an archivist ?
Speaker 2OK , so archives are made up of materials , usually documents , photographs , you know 2D things , but sometimes 3D things that are that were taken from individuals . So for example , a professor can dedicate , can donate their papers , or a writer can donate their you know , their drafts and their notes and their calendars , and I mean there's all kinds of really interesting things in archives , right . There's also video and audio interviews . There's a lot in an archive and archives are very diverse as well some specialize , some don't .
Speaker 2This archive here is really incredible and it's kind of a hidden gem . I think , people could probably would really be excited about what they can learn from the material that's in our collection just already . But what archivists do is in addition to preserving the materials , which , of course , because I don't have degrees in those things , I wouldn't know how to do it . I just came back from Georgia where I was at an intensive archival training there for two weeks . But you know there's a lot to know .
Speaker 2There's people who do preservation and people who do conservation and people who are there to you know it all has to get recorded every single page of everything in a collection , and so it takes a tremendous amount of time for people to catalog what's in , so that when you come to the library in Yuki and you know musicians in Santa Cruz , somebody made it possible for you to find those things through the finding aid of musician and Santa Cruz right .
Speaker 2So that is a whole nother job . Those are catalogers . So , all that to say , this position differs significantly from what other archivists in my community are doing , because I am tasked with . How do we represent the community of Santa Cruz , and by that it's very specific to the county of . Santa Cruz , which is enormous , right All the way up to Davenport , down to Watsonville , or not even Davenport like Big Basin , right it's really a big county .
Speaker 1It's a big county .
Speaker 2And there's so much diversity here in all kinds of ways , and so what we're trying to do is to ensure that as much diversity as that's here in the county is represented in the archive .
Speaker 1I love that and it's you know , yeah , I mean , this place is a very diverse place , it is .
Speaker 2I don't think people will realize .
Speaker 1Well , because I think there's this . You know , as long you know , when we're looking at racially and culturally , it could be more diverse , for sure , compared to other places , right , and , but there are pockets and communities here that have just not been , I think , highlighted .
Speaker 1You know enough to be able to be seen and heard , and so you were mentioning briefly about your dissertation , about how , I guess , native art has been represented and how that affects how . Is it how we are , how people see Native Americans , or is it how and also how Native people themselves see themselves right , Right .
Speaker 1So yeah , so I don't know if you have a specific question about that , but no , I just I kind of want to hear , just in general , that perspective because I think in a lot of equity work we're doing , you know , and trying to live in a world of justice and diversity right , that is an extremely important piece to that is understanding historic context and how that affects the individual and how they see themselves and how other people see them in the world right Absolutely , even unconsciously you know yes .
Speaker 1So I'm curious of like what that was all about and kind of just in general . Can you give me like a general synopsis ?
Speaker 2Sure . So you know , as I was studying and I talk about this , that you know there are literally like thousands and thousands and thousands of volumes of book of yeah like thousands of books .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2About American Indian art and they can be as diverse as you know .
Speaker 2that coffee table book that just has beautiful pictures all the way to really dense scholarly work that , you know , does a deep dive into one kind of art or one artist and as I was doing my research as a grad student I was really I just found that as I was looking through books and attempting to write about art , it became like it became really obvious to me that there wasn't a way in which the labeling of objects made by Native people was consistent . That was the first thing . The second thing was that oftentimes the labels that got attached to objects so , for example , someone who makes traditional art , that could be , you know , ceramics .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Let's just use ceramics as a , because it's you know I'm from well , yeah , so I went to school in the American Southwest and that's a very , very common kind of art there . So that's a traditional art form , but is it ? I mean it is , but it's also like there are contemporary artists that have really taken that medium and shifted it in a way that it's contemporary art but it doesn't get labeled contemporary art because it's a traditional medium .
Speaker 2So , then what happens is artists are called upon to identify themselves by the kind of art they create .
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2So if they say I'm a contemporary artist , somehow that doesn't have the same , you know , weight to it as I'm a traditional artist . Because the , because the people from the outside have these ideas about . Well , if I'm going to buy Indian art , I want it to be something that's reflective of somebody's culture . Even though anything , a native person creates is reflective . But it's you know , it just kind of starts to mess with me Like okay , how am I going to deal with this ?
Speaker 2And then there's , you know , terms like artifact , or there was a term I gave some objects that kind of fit in between that artifact and traditional , which is like stylized traditional , where they took bits and pieces of things that came from . Europe and started implementing it into their own traditional work . So what most people don't know , for example , is that glass beads were not indigenous to the United States before contact , and so all the beadwork that you see that is so immediately people identify as native is made with things that came from elsewhere .
Speaker 1It's almost like that's a contemporary art form , almost If you wanted to put it that in that category , yes , so then .
Speaker 2But what happened is ? It became so much a part of , you know , the interactions between Europeans and native people . Native people took it and and made it their own . So what happened is that now people just identify those beats with native people . But there's a long history there . What did they use before beats came ? How did their art look then ? So all this to say that for me , when I was writing , I started to make these categories based on what I saw in books , because that's where most people get their information about native art right , and so and we're just building upon that Every time we write a dissertation or a thesis , we're just building on scholarship that already exists . So oftentimes we have . If we really wanna break the mold , we have to say this is troubling . We need to get this figured out . And so I would visit museums , for example , and see labels on objects and think well , so somebody coming into the space is gonna understand that this defines native not that .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's problematic .
Speaker 2And it becomes this . I mean , it's true in all the arts but , I think for native people there's a lot . At that time I mean , I graduated in 2004 with my doctorate , so at that time people were really just starting to think about these things , like how are we representing culture ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I think , and it's a huge discussion and it's still continuing but that to say that's how it links with some of the work that I do now . Well , the whole the university library is really committed to ensuring that communities decide what they want to be in the archive so that it tells their story and it's not the stuff I think or Teresa thinks is what should be in the collection . But if we go out to any given community and they say , these are the things that tell our story , that's what we're gonna work with .
Speaker 1What a that's funny . That's a radical concept to ask the communities , but it truly is in a hierarchical society that we live in . And what you're speaking on really reminds me a lot of like I've been seeing within my own experience in like the black community and all these other things where people will say like this is what blackness is , or this is what , in your case , native , is right , while there's not really a lot of this is what white is . You know what I mean . Or you're like specifically European . It's just it's kind of like they have .
Speaker 1I mean , I feel like that is really , if we're about this ideal freedom , that is freedom right , like the freedom to be able to be whatever you want , right To . You know , and I think you know recently , you know , there's a big saying that goes along in the like black activist community and says black is not a monolith right , and it's so , and for me that comes home . It's all in its own complex history , but , raised within a white community primarily , and like I have interests that are , I guess , not considered black right and to the mainstream culture . But I'm also like well , I'm black , so you know what I mean .
Speaker 2Like in that so then it is something that a black person can be interested in right Just by virtue of you existing Right , exactly , exactly
Navigating Societal Expectations for BIPOC Communities
Speaker 2right .
Speaker 1And so there is this sense of how do we live in a society and how do we do the work where these compartmentalized views of specifically brown BIPOC I mean specifically BIPOC communities ? I mean it's not , it doesn't happen in the white communities as heavily you know . It's like you know , sure , people have different tastes and food and music or whatever , but in the white community it's like you can get away with doing anything and not have it be like , well , that's weird that you're doing that , you know .
Speaker 2Right .
Speaker 1But within the black community , let's like you're into like I don't know , like metal music or something . It's only like what you know , like . But yet you know , and historically you know I don't wanna go on too big of a tangent , even though it's totally what I do , but like you know , there's like Jimi Hendrix , there's like all these people who started rock and roll and stuff , you know , but it's perceived as being weird because it's not what our mainstream society views as being in that box of blackness . I'm wondering if you have any like reflections on this ?
Speaker 2Well , I definitely do . I think we first have to start with the fact that when in our whole entire society and I can speak about the United States has always been rooted in this comparison , like this comparative model , like I am this not that you are that , I'm not that is how the whole place was constructed , right , and so that carries on in , and whether that's like a European construct or not , or it's definitely a colonial construct . And so as we move through , you know , in our country and I remind people of this all the time , right , because our history as native people didn't begin when the United States started so we've been here , you know , many , many , like thousands of years , but when these things start , when we started to have contact and I wanna emphasize to the listeners that every tribe in the United States has a different contact story , and if they walk away with one thing today , it's that . So , for example , in the American Southwest , the Spanish had a came in and , you know , were running the show for almost like 200 , about 235 years before the Mexican period , and then there was the American period . So I just wanna say that you know , these histories are complicated , right , they're multi-layered .
Speaker 2And as we move through the world today , oftentimes we are confronted with how can we begin to and I hesitate to use the word heal , but I think how can we begin to be healthier people ? And one of the ways we can do that is to appreciate that when we allow ourselves to individuals especially , to just be who they are and embrace folks where they're at and by that I mean people of color specifically , because we're all on this journey in a very , you know , in a very bizarre situation right now , you know we're coming . The last five years , six years , have just been so strange and as a person of color , I think we , I personally felt like how do I navigate this ? Why ?
Speaker 1am .
Speaker 2I supposed to be doing exactly , or how , when do I speak up and when do I listen ? And that's something that , if I were to say , has helped me tremendously because I'm very chatty but I also really try my very best to be a good listener , and I think that that is key to us beginning to understand each other better , but also to understand ourselves better , because when we're listening to other people talk about their experiences or the things they love or you know how they wish people understood them outside of this particular context or that context , you know we begin to find the words to better express who we are , and I just have found that over and over again in my life and I enjoy .
Listen, Understand Others' Perspectives
Speaker 2For me , I think I've learned a lot from working with students in the past , and one thing that I really I found to be the case is that these young people so all college students now were born after the year 2000 .
Speaker 1And it's painful right For those of us who are a little further along , but nevertheless they come with just so much .
Speaker 2Right , they come with so much . They're such a gift and you know , they're learning to navigate things and as I would sit and listen to them talk about what their hopes were for the future , you know , I , just I wanted so much to be able to say we're gonna get there you know , because there's so much joy and beauty in what they hope for .
Speaker 2But I also appreciate that we have to be dedicated to task and we can't . You know , it's really easy to just like wanna throw in the towel or get frustrated and say I'm just gonna spend time only with people that I feel comfortable with , and you know and stuff .
Speaker 2But the real work is , in my opinion , you know , about talking with people that feel differently , and that's one of the gifts of the work I get to do at UC Santa Cruz is I talk to a lot of different people scholars and staff that I have so much respect for and I couldn't think any more differently than . And we'll sit and talk and I'm like I'm thinking in my head like , wow , you're so wrong . But then I , but then I'm like , hey , you know , like this is , this is cool , and you know we'll talk about it and we just we have a tremendous amount of respect for one another , but it takes work to get there .
Speaker 1You know what ?
Speaker 2I mean Like I'll be in the car with a couple . I mean , I know some people up there that I just adore and you know , consider family and man .
Speaker 2we are so different and I just I'm like wow , you know , but it's what helps me again to better understand who I am and to better articulate who I am and to not be afraid to do that , because you know it's less difficult to just kind of roll and not say much and you're okay . But as you develop those relationships of trust and respect and appreciation both ways , that's where the magic happens . That's where you know you can be like oh yeah , and I've learned a lot .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And it's changed me .
Speaker 1It's , that is okay . Well , you've just said it's beautiful on so many different levels . It's overwhelming in a good way , and I mean for one listening right , like being able to listen to somebody , and definitely if they disagree with you , right and like .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Speaker 1You know , I find that sometimes it's hard to talk about listening to somebody when you don't know where they're coming from . So , like what you're saying listening to their stories and listening to who they are and really , with the understanding of , I have this shirt for the podcast . That's Stay Curious , right .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1And it's , you know , when you approach things with curiosity in that way , it becomes more just like you kind of I don't wanna say you de-attach , but you have the ability to like , really try to understand the other person in front of you . You know in their background and their understanding , and then you're saying having conversations with people , even if you guys are not in agreement about everything and all the different stuff . And you know , the beauty of that to me is that you know we talk about diversity a lot .
Speaker 2You know Within our own within our own circles , you know .
Speaker 1And I always am so confused when I see people who have talked a lot about diversity like , suddenly just go off and alienate a person or a group of people who have maybe strong disagreeing perspectives and maybe even , you know , borderline evil . You know what I mean , but diversity doesn't like choose . You know what I mean Diversity is oh , exactly that's the point Right , it's like it's everybody .
Speaker 1And to be able to be in a diverse society . We have to . It's essential . It's not even like we could or we couldn't , but we have to have better strategies with communication , with listening , with understanding and exactly what you're describing , you know , understanding and having compassion you know what I mean .
Speaker 1I mean , in my experience it's when somebody I'm listening to and I had this similar experience where you're just like wow , you know , like I don't know what to do with this . You know , am I gonna ? Do I have to like educate , do I am I gonna ? I'm just like I'm just gonna listen for a bit . But you know it's when you're around the same people you forget that there's different perspectives right .
Speaker 1And so you hear this person and you're like , wow , okay , this is happening . But there is a sense of like , well , I'm just gonna communicate with you and I'm just gonna like connect with you because I guess what it's human ? You know , we're human right . It's this whole . I'm not gonna connect with people who are not like me . It doesn't feel .
Speaker 2It feels like you're dehumanizing people at some point in the game , and that's what got us to where we are right now , where there's so much tension and so much anxiety and you know people are nervous being worried , you know , and so even just developing a relationship , one person that is in your life that you just you know , you kind of you , can be with them and laugh with them and you know , and then have those moments and what that's doing is it's broadening your understanding , like how , friend , did you get to that place ? Like what brought you there ?
Speaker 2And sometimes , you know , those conversations are really . The gift of friendship is that you know , we don't all have to have the same experience to understand , you know , to understand the human , just being human which is , you know , getting through day to day and trying to be the best person that you can be in whatever given moments you have throughout the day in a genuine way , right Cause we can all skate through , yeah , hey , hi , you know , but then ?
Speaker 2but if we really wanna be genuine and be our authentic selves , we have to allow for a certain amount of vulnerability . And have I sometimes , you know , shared information with the wrong people ? Yes , but that doesn't mean that I should never do it again .
Speaker 2It just means like , oh , you know , maybe those folks weren't down to hear what I had to say and move on , you know . But I mean , I've had lots of difficult moments happen where I thought , wow , I could have avoided that altogether . But you know , it made me on the other side of it . It helped me to be able in the future , to discern better .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Right , like what's happening in a in any given moment , and I'm still learning all the time .
Speaker 1Right , I mean , I love that right . The authentic self means that you have to kind of be real with yourself and with other people , even if it's not the most popular thing to do . And so I'm wondering , cause I , you know , I personally , and I assume you know maybe there's few people out there who also I have us people pleasing kind of perspective . So I'll be with somebody and let's say , you know you have strong , but instead of having to wrestle with that discomfort , I'll just be like , yeah , okay , like you know , okay , we're just going , we're just , and you hear these things that maybe like flare you up inside and you know to live with integrity . In that moment you feel like you have to say something , do something , whatever but , then there's the people-pleasing side of yourself .
Speaker 1that is like I don't wanna cause any kind of conflict or discomfort in this moment . I'm wondering if you wrestle with that at all at times and if you have any specific strategies of how you go about when that happens .
Speaker 2Yes , I have a couple of things that really helped me , and one is my faith practice and , I think , the fact that I really again , and it's a practice , meaning you have to do it regularly , all the time- every day , all day , right , right , you're like every day . And that's you know for me . So two things have happened and you know . So prayer for me is a huge thing and every day I do that multiple times a day , just to get myself , you know , just to remind myself . Look , you know you're having a tough day .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2It's all good , right , it's okay to say that to yourself , it's okay to say and I really am just wow , that just frustrated me or made me . I was really angry and maybe you don't address it at that moment . But what I try to do in those instances is think about how , if I'm in a conversation similar in the future , how . I can shift the conversation away from what I am not interested in dealing with .
Speaker 2Yeah , and it's you know . I think that , like you're very masterful at that as someone who does a podcast when you start to see something move in a direction and you wanna move it back again you know it's just kind of getting acquainted with what that is as a good conversationalist as someone that is curious and wants to know . And you know , I mean I've been in hundreds of meetings where people have said things and I've just thought , wow , but you know we can't write the ship in a moment .
Speaker 2What has to happen is , I think for me again personally is consistency in my behavior , so that when I show up , people know oh Rebecca , you know , like Rebecca's gonna say this about what we're talking about because she's somebody that is really tries to be consistent and be well-being , open to you know , whatever is going on in the moment . And the other thing that I just started so it's kind of fun to share , is that 21 days , or 25 days ago , I started this 21 day yoga challenge .
Speaker 1Oh yes .
Speaker 2And I am , you know , and I just I would love to do a shout out .
Speaker 2It's a person on YouTube who does it for free and I just think it's amazing she does all of her stuff for free . So I was able to practice in my little apartment every morning , get up and what I found was happening is that throughout the day I would just sit and just be breathing in a way that helped me to calm myself , and not because of any interactions with anyone . Sometimes it's your own thoughts that interrupt right and our heart gets hurt by the things we're thinking about ourselves . So I would sit and think why are you thinking that about yourself right now ? Let's just take a moment and correct that thought .
Speaker 2You know , and that again , that very deliberate approach to being with self and you know , before we got on today we were talking about that that it's . We are in a culture of distraction and there's so much that's constantly coming at us that if we don't take the time to pause even for five minutes during the work day and say you know , okay , like what's going on , how you doing , and talk to ourselves like we would a friend I mean , I know that might sound a little nutty , but you know , then we're we're present , I guess , is where I'm going .
Speaker 1I mean , but that's real , you know what I mean . What you're describing . I mean it's funny because , like when we go off in these conversations and I do this too , and I think people who are in academia land or in , like , you know mainstream , you know political discussions , we tend to want to take away the kind of personal development side of things . We just want to focus on the substance or whatever the thing . And so you're describing like mindfulness and almost like being aware of your because that's all it is , it's awareness of your surroundings and yourself , and like what your thoughts are doing and how that's affecting your judgment . I mean that's to me that is essential for political people and for business people and for all these people .
Speaker 1But when we start describing it , you know you even caught yourself , right ? You said talk to yourself like a friend , right , you said it may sound like a little cuckoo , right , but the fact that you know we do that is that's the academia vibe going on . That's like saying like , oh , we would never say that in this , like official capacity , but maybe we should , Absolutely , you know , like maybe we start should , you know , and I think that to me is really something that's small , seemingly small , that perspective of how we don't use these tools within , like these more systematic settings , you know , because we don't wanna acknowledge that our feelings can change the outcomes of a public policy or of like writing a dissertation or you know , doing these kind of more official things .
Speaker 1We wanna think that we are doing it pure of logic or some kind of or we're not .
Speaker 2You know the whole thing in academia is right , you're supposed to be distanced . Yes right From what you're producing . It's supposed to be . You know you're supposed to be like subjective .
Speaker 1The observer yeah .
Speaker 2Which we know
Evolution, Authenticity, and Community Work
Speaker 2I mean . Now , I think a lot of scholars acknowledge that that's not really possible , but I think that for me personally , my own evolution as a human being . You know , I really do a lot of thinking about who I was five years ago and who I am who .
Speaker 2I was 10 years ago because I want to evolve and I think that that's a really important part of who I am as a person and I want to encourage that in my interactions . Like , how can we evolve , how can our friendship evolve , how can our relationship evolve ? There's , you know , it's just important that I find ways for that , for not just myself , but for the people that I'm in community with .
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2So yeah , but it's not the easier route .
Speaker 1That's for sure . Yeah , oh , I completely agree .
Speaker 2You know it's highly connected to the work that you do and your commitment to educating and sharing information with the community , but also raising awareness about the things that are going on out there that oftentimes we can just be oblivious to . So when we're more present , we're actually much more aware of what's happening around us , and but I agree , I mean you know , Santa Cruz can be pretty lonely .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 2And over the seven years that I've been here , I often say to people and I don't mean it in a mean spirited way , but it's one of the least favorite places I've ever lived . And I've lived all over the country , okay , and I think there's a lot of reasons for that , but I've really that's something else that I've been in this you know , kind of decided early in the year is that I really wanted to start thinking about Santa Cruz as a place where I can fit .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And where it is a place that I'm comfortable . Yeah , and it's just gonna you know again , continue . It means that I'm gonna have to get places where I may not be comfortable or make friends , where you know I don't normally go , and that's why I'm so excited about Rise Together , because I think that community of people is gonna help me to , you know , move into right , doing other kinds of things like this . Like being on a podcast where you know it's like I was , I'll admit you know , to the listeners .
Speaker 2I was so nervous . I'm like , well , what are the questions and what are we gonna talk about ? I need to get ready and . I need to think about what I'm gonna say and you know being told it's a conversation and it's just about us being in , you know in dialogue . I was like okay , and it's fantastic .
Speaker 1That's like totally the vibe . You know , it's so funny . I've had so many people because I've , you know , I've done over a hundred in something of these right , and it's really funny that people come . A lot of times you'll have people with notes , you'll have people with all these different things or people who just like who kind of get it and they just like show up , you know , but I do get that email or text before sometime before . That's always like well , what are this , what are you know , this kind of bigger thing . And I'm like , you know , because I , you know as much I struggle with like I wanna just live an authentic life . You know , but a lot of times to do that for myself means that just by existing , I am going against what the status quo is .
Speaker 2Yes .
Speaker 1And when that happens , when I'm doing work like consulting , right , when I go into an organization , I get looks , I get weird perceptions , because I just wanna live , embody what I believe authenticity is . And authenticity isn't clean , you know , like all it isn't like perfect , it isn't like this sense of I'm gonna fit in because I want you to feel safe . I guess , and someone who's like more of a like had people pleasing things . Right , that is hard . You know , like this morning I was like maybe I should just cut my hair . You know , do the clean cut thing that everyone wants and just go into the thing , reshape the whole rote wardrobe , do the whole thing just because I know that is what people want , right .
Speaker 1But authenticity you have to ask yourself , like , where is that coming from ? Why are you doing that ? And so , when it comes to this podcast , I want it to be authentic , I want it to be just a conversation . I don't want it to be something that's just cold , and if I wanted that , it would be extremely edited . There would be tons of things , music everywhere , the whole shebang , you know .
Speaker 1But , like , I don't want that because the people listening are , like , usually doing something for one , so we can go on a long period of time and in my opinion , it's the small things , the nuanced things , the details that maybe we didn't even think about when we talked in this discussion but that people grabbed . It's like a jazz listening to a jazz tune and hearing all the improvisations over the tune . It's that little phrase that some musicians like are some persons like ooh , I like that .
Speaker 2You know I want to do that , and it's like random , it's completely .
Speaker 1It's just like they're just improvising , they're creating , and then actually , you know , that becomes its own thing . Like you know , in modern jazz we have like hip hop elements , and hip hop elements means sampling , like taking parts of music , and Jay Dilla , who did a lot of hip hop beats , he took from jazz tracks different things , right . And then you have like modern people like Robert Glasper , who took that and actually , who was actually jazz pianist and created his own interpretation of that . But it's like these random little fills it's not , it's like not even important . Like when you hear the whole jazz tune , you're like , oh , that sounds great , that one little thing you would have never even known , that like to sample that and to create this whole thing and loop it and do the whole thing to it . But when you hear it in that context , you're like , oh my gosh , that's beautiful , yes , yes . But when you hear it in its original context , you're like it's just part of this bigger , messier , improvisation , you know . And so I think that's why I like doing it this way .
Speaker 2And it's great , it's brilliant , and I will say you know that , just as you were speaking about that , I was reflecting on how you know , folks like me that have just this need to be like I'm nothing without a plan right . The whole point is like preparation for me , but I'm , by virtue of just you know , I am prepared Like you don't need to . You're , you know , just being invited here , means you're ready .
Speaker 1You're enough . Yeah , it means you're ready , you're ready .
Speaker 2Well , we're gonna sit down and have a conversation . So it's very refreshing because I've done . You know , I'm in these kinds of conversations pretty regularly . And it's nice that my mind is just free to speak about . You know all kinds of different things .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean it's truly . It's been awesome talking with you .
Speaker 2Thank you Likewise .
Speaker 1I'm in awe of this conversation . I'm just I'm inspired . I'm doing a lot of work , more work in the community , and then hearing what you have to say is like invaluable . You know what I mean . It's a real treat and a real it's , you know , expanding my own consciousness around the work I'm doing as well . So I appreciate you . But , that being said , I kind of wanna ask this one question , okay , before we move on to like the second part , and this question is so what got you into this whole game , like you know ? Have you always wanted to do like community work , like you know ? Or was this like kind of a trick of sorts ? You know , like you got kind of got thrown into ?
Speaker 1it Like specifically the job , or I guess like you know , like like cause , like you know , you have the community archive . You were in that resource center . Your degrees , what are your degrees ?
Speaker 2They're like I have . Well , I have art degrees .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And I also have , have you know , ethnic studies .
Speaker 1Did you go in thinking like I wanna study ethnic things and be part of a community aspect ? No , actually .
Speaker 2I was not . I tease that . I was a complete accidental scholar . I , I want you know I wanted to be an artist . I mean that was my goal .
Speaker 1I was an art student Right .
Speaker 2I have an MFA and I just I wanted to be an artist and I went on . It just happened , at the time that I was earning my MFA , a lot of museums were starting to hire native folks to work with native collections . So I was encouraged to go get the masters and in American Indian studies so that I would be hireable and I could be doing like working in a museum while also doing my own work .
Speaker 2So I thought , well , that sounds reasonable , and then I did it , and then I ended up moving on . So you know , that's the thing with life , is that I don't , you know , I can't say that I have lots of , I know a lot of people who had a very like had that plan , like I'm going to do this and they did it and I just have been a little bit meandering . But the gift of that and the privilege of that and .
Speaker 2I recognize it's a privilege is that it's it's given me so many different gifts and I have been blessed by all of these different experiences and different kinds of environments that I've both worked in and studied in , and I've had the opportunity to study with amazing scholars who were highly , you know , just incredible people . But also just the knowledge that they had about any given topic was , you know , renowned , and then to be able to go out into communities and learn about them from that perspective was also really beautiful . And again , working with students and so it's been . It has been kind of an uncommon approach but it's worked for me , you know , and I didn't have other responsibilities that people have .
Speaker 2You don't have a family , I'm able to move around , so that you know that kind of helped too .
Speaker 1I mean that's beautiful . I love that as someone who's kind of untraditional myself .
Speaker 2Right right .
Speaker 1Like . I think it's great Cause I think of the world as the artwork . Like you know , at this point in the game I think of like community and like out here as the art you know , cause it is art .
Speaker 1Like art is almost like just a reflection , in my opinion , of like , like in the process of doing it , and the whole segment of the arts is like just a really good reflection of , like the human experience in this connected world , you know , in this kind of natural world , almost Like cause , you know . Also , people forget , like we're not the only species on this planet . Right , you know what I mean . Like that's , that's like a real thing , and you know we're not the only planet in the galaxy . You know what I mean .
Speaker 1We're not the only thing , we're not the biggest thing in town , you know , yeah , but the arts allow us to like , kind of like shine , and I would argue , the sciences as well , like , show us like the potential of humanity you know , like , really like in the in , it's just in its being , not even like the exact , the artwork or the discoveries or any of that , the process of it , of like understanding who you are and how to express that you know in that journey , and so I mean I love , I love on untraditional approaches to things because it's to me it highlights nature more than linear thinking . You know , yes , because to do , be some , to do something , it's really linear thinking is very rare in nature , you know , you don't see the really sharp lines and straight things .
Speaker 2It's usually an adapting situation you know , Because change is real right .
Speaker 1Change is completely real
Reflections on Life and Personal Growth
Speaker 1. All right , we're going to move on to the second part here , all right , ok , do you want to drink this water ?
Speaker 2How are we doing ?
Speaker 1in time . Oh , we're good . Ok , I don't have a watch . I used to have a watch . I think we're good . Yeah , this part goes by a little bit quicker .
Speaker 2Yeah , I just want to make sure that we .
Speaker 1Sometimes , yeah , sometimes it's crazy , sometimes it's just like yeah , One time it was like near the end of the conversation and I asked a question and it went on this whole other tangent and I couldn't stop it because it was like I was a two into it . I was like oh god , and then it was like a three hour podcast .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1OK , all right , welcome back . Yeah , hi again . Hello , first question Do you have any quotes that you live by or think of often ?
Speaker 2Well , I do like a couple . One of my favorites is be kind .
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2Simple , and I think those are wise words to live by .
Speaker 1It's kind of crazy . So simple so simple , but so true . What is something that you believe that other people think is crazy ?
Speaker 2Hmm , yeah , I don't know that I have any beliefs that are off the charts .
Speaker 1Really I feel it . Do you have a favorite failure to success story ? I guess it is questions more about just your relationship with like feeling like you have failed at something , but seeing the other side of that .
Speaker 2I think generally , I'm always really pleased when I can learn from mistakes . Yes , and that isn't always what I want to happen , yeah . I'd rather have not made the mistake in the first place , yeah , but when I learn from them , I think that's a failure to success story for me .
Speaker 1I love that . I think I'm a similar way . When I ask myself these questions , I'm always like I've trained my brain so much to if something fails or is wrong . There's still a lot of beauty within that situation . I learned so much Always , and so it's not really a failure , right in that case .
Speaker 2It doesn't feel good in the moment , but you get to the other side and it does right .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2You get some distance from it Absolutely .
Speaker 1You learn . What new belief , behavior or habit has most improved your life ?
Speaker 2Recently , as I shared you know , doing this yoga with a studio that's in Texas on YouTube that you know she does yoga for everybody and I think that that's so beautiful and she's this incredible woman of color that just you know . Every morning I got up and just got to see someone who looked like me and was such a lovely human being , and also just what it taught me to pause and breathe . That's something I've recently been doing a lot .
Speaker 1Pausing and breathing .
Speaker 2Just take it easy . Yeah , oh Jesus .
Speaker 1That's such a good reminder . When you feel overwhelmed or unfocused , what do you do ?
Speaker 2That most definitely , most definitely so funny .
Speaker 1If you had a gift one book to someone , what would it be ?
Speaker 2Well , my favorite book of all time is Music for the Chameleons by Truman Capote . He's a masterful short story writer and it was the first book I ever read of short stories . Yeah , and for me I'm not . I did not grow up a reader and so , reading for me , I had to really learn how to do it as an adult learn how to do it well , I should say as an adult .
Speaker 2And I was introduced to that book when I was in community college by a teacher who I think , recognized that struggle and said you know , and the fact that he can tell these amazing stories in five pages , it just , it completely captured me , and so that's what I would say . That's my book always like , even though I've read just so many amazing books since that book . He tells such incredible stories in that book .
Speaker 1I love that yeah .
Speaker 2I love the ones that are short and profound .
Speaker 1Those are the best . Yes , they're literally the best . Yeah , who do you think of when you hear the word successful ?
Speaker 2Yeah , that's a tough one , you know , because I you know , I think I would say my parents .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And the reason why is because they raised some really phenomenal kids , and I'm not saying that like I'm phenomenal , I'm saying that they raised kids that are now , you know , that went on to be , in my opinion , you know , really good people , yes , and are really dedicated to service , and that , I think , was a message in our home my whole life .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2My dad was a union organizer . I had to stay at home , mom . And so I think for me it was always like you need to be aware of , you know , everybody's work .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And that everybody's work matters . And everybody's work is important , and what that meant as I was growing up is that I was always thinking and I think my siblings as well , you know we always had the message that when you be helpful to others , do what you can for others . Be generous . You know you have so much , even though by today's standards , we didn't . But we did because we were always surrounded with good people and people who really helped us , and we were always surrounded with good people who really helped each other out , so I would say my parents .
Speaker 1I love that so much . That's a beautiful answer . What is something people often get wrong about you ?
Speaker 2That I'm really like I tend to . I think people think that I'm probably not as approachable as I am . I don't , I'm not sure why exactly . I think , hey , like , if you ever you know , yeah that's something that people get a little wrong .
Speaker 1That's a common one actually .
Speaker 2I'm super cool .
Speaker 1I'm pretty awesome . Yeah , I'm cool , I just want to be cool , awesome , you know . Yeah , okay , I could take it or leave it , but cool is really important to me .
Speaker 2So if you're cool and you want to talk to me , do it .
Speaker 1I love that . What's the worst advice you have received ?
Speaker 2The worst advice I've ever received , I think . Hmm , you know , I think there's advice out there that I've , I've , I've , I've received that , or I should say that I have received and that I think is a common kind of advice , which is , you know , to be , to be in a place of of fear . Yeah , but don't try that , don't do that , don't move there . Right Don't right Because it's coming from a place of concern and love .
Speaker 1Oh yep .
Speaker 2But it's really kind of rooted in fear .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2So I've learned how to identify the difference .
Speaker 1Yes .
Speaker 2And really appreciate that love .
Speaker 1Right .
Speaker 2That's coming at me , but also say yeah , okay , I hear that and here's how it's going to be possible for me to still do it . You know that's awesome .
Speaker 1Well , if you could put anything you want on a billboard , what would it say ?
Speaker 2Hmm , yeah , be present .
Speaker 1Yeah , I love that .
Speaker 2Be here now . I know that's . That's around out there yeah .
Speaker 1I mean it's , it's around because it's good , I think Rom . Doss's book right .
Speaker 2That's oh . Is that where that's from ?
Speaker 1Yeah , it's like it's not here , it's not my house , but it's a . It's like just this , like epic rant of a . I think he took like acid or something and wrote this whole thing and then it was like this pamphlet that was around or something and they're like in their community , but it was like just as epic wisdom .
Speaker 1Just you know , talking about all these different things in this little package packet , but then eventually they published it into a book , right , and so it became a thing , I think . Last one for this thing is what does positive change in yourself and the world look like to you ?
Speaker 2Hmm , uh , I think , acceptance .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2That's , that's key to so many things , and certainly it's for self , for myself .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2It's gonna . It's key to my whole . You know , like to peace for me , and I think it's probably true for for the world too . You know , it's just .
Speaker 1Hard one .
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , starting with self right . I mean , I think that that's also as we talk about you know the world . You know also , as we talked about before coming on , that you know when we devote ourselves to doing in our , in ourselves .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2For ourselves in a way that is generous with self , then we can do that with others , and that that is really at the root .
Speaker 2I think of love and of and of compassion and kindness . Um yeah , and even you know , even people , I . There's a father Doyle down down south who , um , you know , runs homeboy industries . He wrote a really great book called tattoos on the heart and he talked about the fact that you know so many of these young people who came out of gangs and were in prison and then got out , and you know it's like a rehabilitation program , he said . You know they have every reason to be filled with .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And they just all the rage . They had all the hate , they had all the anger they had .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Because of the things that they had to endure throughout the course of their entire lives , from infancy until they were arrested . And he said but it is a miracle when they are introduced to ways , when they're introduced to like having those caring conversations with self and when they um in his case , because he's a priest , you know when they're introduced to a kind of love that is not conditional .
Speaker 1That is , that is .
Speaker 2Then that's massive changes happen , and he's witnessed it over and over and over again and I , just I admire him so much it was a great privilege to meet him a couple of years ago but just the the lives that have been changed by that Um philosophy , I suppose , or his spiritual practice .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Um is beautiful , so I would say that .
Speaker 1Oh , man , that's uh so much to talk about on that , but I love it . Thank you for sharing that . Um .
Astrology Signs and Spirit Animals
Speaker 1So this last part is the two kind of light questions . Um , first one is what is your astrology sign and do you resonate with it ?
Speaker 2Um . My sign is Aries but , I , was born um , and I don't you know .
Speaker 1I don't profess to know a ton about astrology but um .
Speaker 2I was born on the cusp of Pisces and Aries .
Speaker 1Oh , okay , so um so .
Speaker 2I'm the 22nd of March .
Speaker 1Okay , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2So I you know , really close to the first day of spring , um , so for me , I think there's some things about being an Aries that I definitely resonate with but , I , also . There's also a kind of gentleness that's associated with Pisces that . I , uh , I definitely think of in in myself and I didn't own that gentleness . I was always trying to protect it and not be um sensitive and gentle because it's not an easy world when you are .
Speaker 1No , yeah .
Speaker 2But as I've gotten older , and especially in the last , you know , probably five years of my life , I'm like cool with saying you know , along with being cool .
Speaker 1I'm also cool with saying you know .
Speaker 2I , I am that gentle sensitive person yeah . That , um , you know I'm affected by a lot and but I just I I'm learning how to cope with that in better ways than I did before .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think of , I think of the astrology signs as kind of like a , like a gradient , right Like it's like a gradual into the next , so it's .
Speaker 2I think the bravery and the you know and the like forging ahead kind of spirit of Aries is very real .
Speaker 1And your coolness and my coolness , yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2They got a good look . They got a good look .
Speaker 1Yeah , no , no , no . Shade on Pisces out there Just saying oh yeah , yeah , yeah . And then the last one is if you had a spirit animal or power animal , what would it be ?
Speaker 2Well , I think , um , it would be a bird , and I would say it would be between a crow or a hawk .
Speaker 1And again .
Speaker 2Right , it's these interesting . What I like about Hawks is they're just so badass Like they are so striking and beautiful , but they are just , you know , supreme , uh , raptors . And then you've got the crows , who are like down with us , so smart you know , out there um being amazing , going through like , just you know , in unity with us , like in this weird way .
Speaker 2I don't know if unity's the right word , but they're like in our , in amongst us , and they've kind of I kind of I see crows and I just love them . I think they're so beautiful , but also they're so smart and they outsmart us all the time .
Speaker 1And I think that's kind of that's crows are . You know , I like Hawks for sure and crows . Crows are interesting to me . They're extremely intelligent . To me , hawke and Crow both have different kind of power , right .
Speaker 1And so like the hawk is like individual focus , like the individualism they make for life . You know they they steal eggs , they like , are aggressive . You know they have that kind of aggressor energy and then they'll wait and they'll stalk and then they'll . You know , when they want to see something they'll get it , no matter what right . And then the and then the crow is clever , right . You know , if they want to break something open , they'll leave in front . So a car breaks it open for them and they can grab it . Right . They work in community with each other . There's never just one crow . If you see one crow , you know there's another crow around a hawk .
Speaker 2That's not the case you know , they fly solo .
Speaker 1Right , and so it's interesting the ecosystem of them because , like the crows will like constantly attack the hawk . You know , have you seen that before ? It's a very common thing . You know , you're watching this hawk and all this crows . Yeah , yeah , it's amazing yeah , right , you see , these kind of like attacks happen because the hawk will go after the crows eggs yes , right . And then a weird thing happens sometimes where the crow and the hawk will team up to go after like a , like a , like a the horned owl .
Speaker 2Another predator , right , right , who's ?
Speaker 1bigger and who like takes over nests . They don't even make their own nests , they just take over . There's like , here's a good spot , mine . Now , you know .
Speaker 2Yeah , try and move me .
Speaker 1Right , and it's so interesting because it's like I don't know , it's like the energy of like community and individualism , you see it play out in those two birds . Those two birds , I just I just meditate on them a lot . You know what I mean , do you ? Really ? I'm like I'm such a bird person . I'm like I watch birds constantly .
Speaker 2Yeah , I love birds too .
Speaker 1I'm like obsessed yes , a literal obsession Like we went to me and my wife went to the arboretum yesterday and I have this really nice camera and I like , really I captured these beautiful pictures of hummingbirds Because recently , like hummingbirds have been the thing that been like all around my consciousness and it's just so interesting , these little things full of sugar and testosterone going at it , like , just like you know you'll see them , like they're beautiful , majestic , and then suddenly another one comes out and they started like just fighting and you're like what is happening ?
Speaker 2Right , you know .
Speaker 1But , yeah , I study , I just like . I feel like nature has so much to teach us , Like about balance and about what we consider to be right or wrong , or what , and how the relationship exists . You know , some people may see a hawk going after eggs as being you know , bad , you know , but it's like it's nature , it's reality , it's like how it is .
Speaker 1And but then it's like this weird cycle that goes on . There's gifts from that kind of aggressor energy , but there's also gifts from the communal and the clever and the kind of communication energy which is a crow is masterful of . They'll remember people for generations in their in their thing , you know in their community , and so I think that's it's a beautiful and they're not like hawks are .
Speaker 2Hawks are really kind of snub like you know , like they don't have time for the human .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2But , but the crow is like oh yeah , you know , then there's the human and they're just kind of right there with us .
Speaker 1It's like that . It's like that acceptance you're talking about . They accept that we are part of the ecosystem , and I had you know they , they , yeah , they're .
Speaker 2They're beautiful both of them .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I'm so , I'm so glad I that we have that in common . Yeah , that tells me a lot , yeah .
Speaker 1I just wanted to share just one more story with you about a bird at . In high school actually had a friend who was much older than me . He was , he had his own , he was like in 20 , mid 20s at that time , but he was , he had his home and there was this bird like a crow , and it was clearly like injured or something was flying weird , okay . And he just looked at it and put out his arm like this and just stared at it and it came and it grabbed . He still has the scar marks on his hand and he walked around with that crow on his shoulder . So he had a dog and so him and the dog would go on walks and the crow would just be on his shoulder while he was healing and we want to heal they would just fly around and come on his shoulder , this like crow .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1It was ridiculous , but it's on the edge , traumatic habit , I think , like another dog showed up and like the bird . Eventually , like the dog attacked the bird and it was . It was a sad story , but the fact that what ? A beautiful thing though but fact that that could have a relationship with a bird is without having to like extremely train it and like all these different things to me shows a lot about like that crow energy of like what you're describing , this kind of acceptance this this sense of community that we're here together , Like we're in this kind of , you know , like that .
Speaker 1I always see crows go into the garbage . Of course , you know , and they'll just they just accept that we're here in the ecosystem and but yeah , you're right , Hawks are just like we're gonna ignore them . They're an unfortunate reality , yeah same with , like , mountain lions right , they have the same kind of like . We're gonna just try to avoid these people at all costs . You know which is it's really . It's really interesting , all right , but here here , we go Okay .
Speaker 2Well , thank you , thank you . Thank you so much . Such a pleasure .
Speaker 1Here's your last words , so you can tell us anything . Where are you doing ? Where can we find you ? Any last words of wisdom ? This is your time .
Speaker 2Oh , okay , well , I can be found at UCSC . You can look me up in the directory . I'm in the in the special collections and archives , and if you're at all interested in learning more about that , please don't hesitate to reach out . And again , I just want to say how much fun it's been to be in community with you today and how nice it's been to get to know you better . And and yeah , thanks so much for your work .
Speaker 1Oh , thank you , Becca . Thank you so much for coming on the podcast . This has been amazing . I love this conversation . I always put this out . This has been Thomas St Pedersen with Speak for Change podcast . Thank you all for listening and have a wonderful day .